Railroad ties in bunkers...

[Sean_A]

Kalen-

Fair enough....I was honestly just wondering was there an engineering purpose that railroad ties perform that sod faces can not.

Railroad ties are a far more cost effective than sod walls  at preventing erosion in big bunkers in a coastal setting.  Sorry if that is too obvious an answer.  

Since placing sod also needs a flat base I would assume that placing sod may also not be effective on extreme terrain such as in your first photo.

EDIT: And from a merely aesthetic standpoint, the original hell bunker would make a good case studdy as it has had sod wall, railroad ties and a semi splashed face. 

I think David has it in one.  For these huge bunkers in a hill it would be madness to try and use stacked sod as the wall.  Jeepers, I am amazed at how well the walls hold at Sandwich and whenever I see a pic of those two bunkers I imagine the walls giving way. 

I don't have a problem either way.  I say do what makes sense and in a small pot it doesn't make sense from a health & safety perspective to use a hard wall as the face.  The player has nowhere to go to avoid being hit should a slip of the wrist occur. 

I suspect there is more going on with the bunker below than just doing its job.  It flows beautifully into the background hills.



Ciao

[Steve Lang]

 

withstand erosion quite well

get old and gray like most golfers

don't wash out easily when you stick them in the ground

used to be in large, available quantities and cheap when the USA had railroads being maintained ( i thought this was an original PD influnce for using

a logical extention would be... are there any concrete sleepers out there being used??

[Anthony Gray]

  I am sure that we can make hazards today without the need for rairoad ties and sod faces. The bunker at Old Macdonald could have been built without them. But they do add flavor. Function or aesthetics. I think more aesthetics in these modern cases.


                                   Anthony

[Adrian_Stiff]

Some will like railroad ties, some will not. They certainly have their uses in shoring up steep slopes. Sod faces there is also a place for.
Personally put me in the liking them column, I actually think they mingle nicely into many landscapes but lots of times I have heard entirely the opposite that they look totally wrong.

[TEPaul]

If Old MacDonald (a new course) is using "sleepers" in some of its bunkers I would have to say the reason that was done was as some kind of tribute to the old days of golf course architecture.

The good news is we do have a few contributors on here who would most definitely know the answer to that! 

I believe I can say with pretty much total assurance that the reason Pete Dye began to use railroad ties in his architecture often enough that his style became known for that is because on their rather well known study tour of Scotland many years ago Pete and Alice became just as fascinated by some of the really rudimentary old man-made features of early architecture (such as sleepers) as anything else they found over there.

I believe it can be pretty well documented that it was Pete Dye who rejuvenated the use of "sleepers" over here about a half century AFTER they basically went out of fashion and use over here.

A decent example would be NLGA's famous "Short" hole (#6). Originally it had "sleepers" supporting the bunkering along the front of the green but Macdonald removed them many years ago and went with the look the hole has today.

Personally, I have nothing against the use of "sleepers" in architecture today or again but I do believe it probably is a bit "gimmicky" at this point in the evolution of golf course architecture.

Furthermore, I know if I was an architect and I used them I would definitely tilt them and fairly substantially towards the line of play (as they seem to be in that photo of Old Macdonald). If an architect stands them straight up in a sand bunker there is no way they could not be considered an accident waiting to happen.

[Paul_Turner]

Brancaster is the king of sleepered bunkers.  The sleepers are often slanted sufficiently to guarantee that a thinned shot doesn't ricochet straight back at the player.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The first two pictures are number four at Royal North Devon.  It is 100 yards wide. Sleepers are the only thing that works here.





The next picture shows the bunkers at number five.  Revetted bunkers are the only option.



I played Woodhall Spa, Ganton and Alwoodley last week.Each course built their bunkers differently.  I'll post some pictures of them later. them later.

[C. Squier]

I'm always partial to the ricochet.  My mind travels from being upset at hitting a bad shot to the pure hope that my ball will shoot off in some wild direction in about a nanosecond.  Making your playing partners chuckle is great consolation to a lousy shot.  

And who doesn't hit ball off a mountain when one is in range on a mountain course?  Best $4 you can spend.

[RJ_Daley]

I believe the 'sleeper' term actually applies to the RR tie that is placed perpendicular to the ones that face the hazard.  They are placed at slight angles into the mass of the hill, or area to be reinforced.  If they were merely stacked (even on 1" off center to stagger, they would not hold up and would eventually slip.  They need the perpendicular 'sleepers' that you don't see that are tied into the hill, to make them a viable support to hold back the earth pressures. 

I am generally against them except in actual situations where they are the most useful for steep slope-wall support.  I don't like them in and around greens, but not as much as I hate rock walls near greens and in bunkers or anywhere for that matter.  If RR ties are properly slanted, I can live with them when necessary, or for shoring up a wall of a water feature, like 17 island green at Sawgrass.  But, I prefer all design that tries to make grass slopes work first.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Brancaster is the king of sleepered bunkers.  The sleepers are often slanted sufficiently to guarantee that a thinned shot doesn't ricochet straight back at the player.

And if you want a new example of the same philosophy, look at Pat Ruddy's European course where every bunker on the property is done with sleepers.

I think the angle works well. It allows weaker players to always get out of bunkers first time whilst not making it much easier for the stronger player.

The decision by Ruddy to shore up EVERY bunker with ties must surely have been an aesthetic one as opposed to an erosion / retaining wall solution. I suspect it was a maintenance decision as well with sod walls having to be replaced every 5 years or so...

[Tom_Doak]

Chip:

Our decision to put sleepers in a few bunkers at Old Macdonald -- maybe 4 or 5 bunkers out of 100 -- was based on the following:

a)  Variety.  We are trying to build a course that won't be just the same as the other three in Bandon, and bunker styling is one way to differentiate.

b)  Historical reference.  A lot of the great holes Macdonald saw 100 years ago had sleepered faces ... the Short hole at Brancaster, the Cape bunker at Westward Ho!, even the big front left bunker at the Redan was sleepered for a while.

c)  Wind erosion is the biggest maintenance problem for bunkers at Bandon [and in the sand hills of Nebraska, too].  The bunker faces get really beaten up, especially on bigger bunkers where the sand is always being blown up on the face and then the grass dessicates underneath it.

d)  They are pulling up all the railroad-tie paths on Pacific Dunes because they beat up the maintenance equipment and were too easy to slip on while walking.  So, we had a bunch of free railroad ties lying around.  Perhaps that's when the Scots started using them, too ... when railways started going away in lieu of the automobile?

So, the correct answer was (e) all of the above.  We know it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but that's okay.

[Rich Goodale]

Dick and Tom P

"sleeper" = "railroad tie"

Nothing more, nothing less.

Tom D

I really like the look of your "Hell" lookalike!

Rich

[Chip Gaskins]

Tom-

Perfect.  Thats what I wanted to know. 

Lehman's course at the Prairie Club doesn't have them on all the bunkers either.

Did you guys use them only on holes that had a direct historical reference OR did you use them on holes that needed them from an maintenance standpoint OR both?

Chip

[Anthony Gray]

Chip:

Our decision to put sleepers in a few bunkers at Old Macdonald -- maybe 4 or 5 bunkers out of 100 -- was based on the following:

a)  Variety.  We are trying to build a course that won't be just the same as the other three in Bandon, and bunker styling is one way to differentiate.

b)  Historical reference.  A lot of the great holes Macdonald saw 100 years ago had sleepered faces ... the Short hole at Brancaster, the Cape bunker at Westward Ho!, even the big front left bunker at the Redan was sleepered for a while.

c)  Wind erosion is the biggest maintenance problem for bunkers at Bandon [and in the sand hills of Nebraska, too].  The bunker faces get really beaten up, especially on bigger bunkers where the sand is always being blown up on the face and then the grass dessicates underneath it.

d)  They are pulling up all the railroad-tie paths on Pacific Dunes because they beat up the maintenance equipment and were too easy to slip on while walking.  So, we had a bunch of free railroad ties lying around.  Perhaps that's when the Scots started using them, too ... when railways started going away in lieu of the automobile?

So, the correct answer was (e) all of the above.  We know it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but that's okay.

  See I told you.

                           Anthony

[George_Bahto]

In the early days at NGLA I believe Macdonald used the sleepers on the face of the 6th hole (shown below) to stabalize the bunkerface.

He redid the bunker faces on this hole a couple of times over the years.

I have never seen any other pictures of holes at National where he did this, which is odd because the faces of the 6th hole are some of the shallowest faces on the course.

BTW: Hell Bunker at Old Macdonald looks like it's been there for a long, long time. If you short of it and fairly close you can't see the pin. It is a thing of beauty.

[Peter Pallotta]

"...we had a bunch of free railroad ties lying around..."

That strikes me as just about the best reason for doing just about anything on a golf course, i.e. economic necessity and/or frugalness....and certainly in keeping with the Spirit of the Game, a game born on land chosen because it wasn't any good for anything else, like growing food

The railway ties would look good to me for that reason alone, but there are other reasons too...

Peter

[Tim Bert]

What are they using in place of the RR ties for paths at Pacific Dunes?  Does that answer differ for walking paths vs. steps?

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

To be honest, I haven't been out on Pacific Dunes for a while to see what they are doing for replacements.  Such is the life of a golf course architect.

[RJ_Daley]

Rich, you are correct, sir.  The term I was going for is "dead men" that are the sleepers that are tied into the mass of the structure on the perpendicular angle... old brains, need more oil on the rusty memory... 

[Tony_Muldoon]

At the European Club thery're virtually 360 degrees of the bunker.  For me it didn't work.  You want it low on the entry side to catch the rolling ball and high on the exit side to increase the challenge.

[Jon Wiggett]

From the maintenance point it should be noted that rabbits can't dig through sleepers

[Will MacEwen]

At my club, there is a bunker with ties on an incline, and you can putt the ball and it will run up the ties, hop in the air and roll onto the green.

[Jon Wiggett]

At my club, there is a bunker with ties on an incline, and you can putt the ball and it will run up the ties, hop in the air and roll onto the green.

Judging the pace of that putt must be tricky

[Richard Hetzel]

Hunter's Station GC, near Oil City, PA. Not a fan of this look at all.

[JC Urbina]

Rich
How old is that course?