Railroad ties in bunkers...

[Chip Gaskins]

Is there a architectural purpose that a sod face couldn't take care of?

[Bart Bradley]

Chip:

I'll let the experts say for certain...but don't sod faced bunkers have to be rebuilt much more often than these would?

Bart

[Tim Gavrich]

I think the wood boards themselves are a good deal more stable than the sod faces.  I personally love the look of the railroad ties anyway.  It may not be minimalistic or naturalistic and certainly wouldn't fit in with such courses, but on courses where they fit, I believe they enhance aesthetics greatly.

[ChipOat]

Back when Harbour Town was the first-of-a-kind in the U.S., Hubert Green quipped that it was "the only golf course I've ever seen that could burn down".

[Bart Bradley]

I think the wood boards themselves are a good deal more stable than the sod faces.  I personally love the look of the railroad ties anyway.  It may not be minimalistic or naturalistic and certainly wouldn't fit in with such courses, but on courses where they fit, I believe they enhance aesthetics greatly.

Tim:

Really?  Of all the reasons architects might do this aesthetics wouldn't have crossed my mind.  I think they are really not attractive ...I always thought they were utilitarian only.  Well, to each his own.

Bart

[Matt Varney]

Chip,

Personally I like the subtle use of railroad ties in areas where they add a very unique accent like a deep bunker or walled bulkhead and are needed like in the first image.  If you think about it railroad ties are a natural material much like stone but they can blend very nicely into a golf course setting with all the grasses as they age and they are sturdy and better looking than concrete walls.

Railroad Ties add a sense of drama to contours and in some cases they can create an unfair ricochet for some golf balls in areas like bunkers and slopes around green complexes.  When railroad ties are used on a golf course the designer / architect needs to show some restraint because the use of railroad ties hole-after-hole on a golf course gets old very fast.

I live in Knoxville, Tennessee and we have this nice local course Willow Creek.  The course is very straightforward and a good test for most golfers and lots of fun to play.  When you get to the 16th hole you must hit a good drive to setup an approach that could range from 165-200 yards coming into a green on a 45 degree angle that has 3 large bunkers on the left side.  You need to fly them to get on the green and you have wetlands short right and a lake left of the bunkers.  Well this approach shot is really hard when you  consider the slope on all these bunkers is made of railroad ties placed all together side-by-side no grass at all.

You either fly the bunkers and hit the green, hit your ball into the lake or wetlands, hit your ball into the bunker or the last option you come damn close to flying the bunkers and your ball ricochets off the railroad tie bunker face and is gone into the water.

This hole is great looking fun as hell to play but, you would not want to play 18 holes like this one because it takes the best you got just to make par.

Matt
 

[Chip Gaskins]

Bart-

I totally agree with you.  Though they may be needed, they certainly take away from the look of any golf landscape to me.

I honestly ask this question because two much anticipated courses (Old MacDonald, Prairie Club - Lehman) will both have them.  I understand Royal St. George's, I suppose I understand Pete Dye doing "something innovative"....but was wondering why Old MacDonald and Prairie Club would use them if they didn't have to.

Again, to each his own....I was just wondering the utilitarian purpose that couldn't be solved in other civil engineering ways.

Chip

[Andy Troeger]

I don't have a problem with them generally. I'm not sure I love the aesthetic, but if its used sparingly I think its a nice change of pace; they certainly keep your attention more because of the potential disaster associated with a bad bounce.

Where is that first photo from? That looks like a monster of a bunker where the railroad ties and the long grass around the bunker make for a bit of overkill.

[Tim Gavrich]

I think the wood boards themselves are a good deal more stable than the sod faces.  I personally love the look of the railroad ties anyway.  It may not be minimalistic or naturalistic and certainly wouldn't fit in with such courses, but on courses where they fit, I believe they enhance aesthetics greatly.

Tim:

Really?  Of all the reasons architects might do this aesthetics wouldn't have crossed my mind.  I think they are really not attractive ...I always thought they were utilitarian only.  Well, to each his own.

Bart

Bart--

My views are a little kooky, I know...they just have that very bold look about them, which interests me.  While I certainly enjoy golf courses that look like they were merely discovered and laid on the ground (The Old Course, Cuscowilla as a modern example), I also see golf course architecture as part-engineering and when such work is done tastefully to a piece of land and a wonderful golf course results, I really love seeing it (e.g. Mike Strantz's golf courses, Yale, Dye courses).  Railroad ties, when used artfully, stand out to me as both a utilitarian measure and as a nod to the engineering aspects of the craft of GCA.

--Tim

[David_Tepper]

Andy T. -

I am pretty sure the first picture is a fairway bunker at Royal St. Georges, although there is a similar bunker at both Royal Portrush and St. Endoc.

DT

[Matt Varney]

Chip,

I understand where you are coming from and when I think of railroad ties being used in American golf courses I think of Pete Dye.  The application of railroad ties can make a hige difference in the look and profile that golfers see when playing a golf course.

Think about how you have seen them used over the years -

For walls, steps and bulkheads around tee boxes and green complexes.

For bunker faces and a sense of dramatic falloffs between fairways and fairway bunkers.

Stacked horizontally or buried into the ground vertically standing connected to create walls.

Buried into the ground so that only one side shows and grass strips are between them like Harbor Town, Heron Point or as seen in the last image at P.B. Dye Golf Club.

Does anybody have images of the use of railroad ties at Old MacDonald or Prairie Club?

Matt

[Eric Smith]

Does anybody have images of the use of railroad ties at Old MacDonald or Prairie Club?

Matt:

 The second image in Chip's original post above is from Old Macdonald, cut from Ben Dewar's recent thread.   I think that's Jim Urbina playing over Hell.

[Matt Varney]

So that guy standing in the fairway getting ready hit is playing at Old MacDonald?  Does anyone have a close up of that big ass bunker?  I didn't think those were railroad ties because they are all gray in color.  Maybe they are old ties used to give the course an aged look like the bunker has been around for years.

[Tom Naccarato]

Chip,
While you'll have a lot of architects that will say they would never use sleepers for fear of liability. I can' t think of a more nastier way of making a bunker look, play and seem fearsome on soil that deserves it. I also think you need to learn that.

Go research a golf course like Northwood just north of London where sleepers were part of allure to the greatness of golf holes that once existed there (and have been more or less left for dead (architecturally) The holes are not the same. To paraphrase a friend of mine (Robert Ball) 'The bones are there' sadly the sleepers are not.

Chip, to repeat again, honestly, I think you need to learn a lot about golf architecture, but then again, so do I...... So here is a tip to get you started on your way about Northwood: Go read Golf Courses of the British Isles by some bloke named Darwin. You will get the point--hopefully.

Matt, Those are railroad ties, sleepers, at least they look like it on that rendition of Hell bunker. A masterful one at that...

[Steve Lang]

  Well, simply the world is not made of sod..  and if every bunker was so supported, then they wouldn't really get the golfer thinking much, differentiating, especially about odd bounces, eh?

[Chip Gaskins]

I can' t think of a more nastier way of making a bunker look, play and seem fearsome on soil that deserves it. I also think you need to learn that.

Chip, to repeat again, honestly, I think you need to learn a lot about golf architecture

Tommy-

I will work on my knowledge...hopefully I will get the point, hopefully.

Chip



versus

[Kalen Braley]

I prefer this look:



Over this:

[Chip Gaskins]

Kalen-

Fair enough....I was honestly just wondering was there an engineering purpose that railroad ties perform that sod faces can not.

I do prefer the more natural look, but was more wondering was there a specific reason bulk heads are used.  Sod faces are usually vertical and thus harder to traverse, versus bulk heads that can be at various degrees from vertical to benign.

Chip

[Matt Varney]

Does any rule say a bunker face has to be playable?

That big bunker at Old MacDonald is killer looking and it just draws your eyes to look at like a fine piece of art.  Could you create bunker face slopes that were old grayed splintered railroad ties and then grow tall fescue grasses among the random pattern that these old timbers were placed?

I think it is great look and I have tried creating this style just to see what it would look like.  You could do it and it would create a really unique look that is almost unseen but, if your ball lands in the twisted timbers and tall grass your screwed and its unplayable if you can find the ball.  On the flip side, with all timbers you have a good chance for a ricochet.  

[TEPaul]

Chip:

My understanding (and I'm pretty sure I'm right from the likes of Pete Dye) is that railroad ties or what in the old days were called "sleepers" were just a very common architectural support for rugged and naturally evolving bunkering in the old days abroad. The look was picked up over here around the turn of the century and then went out of use and fashion quite quickly.

I really do believe it was Pete Dye who was responsible for regenerating the use and look and populartiy of railroad ties on some courses over here and generally in the modern era (mostly on his own courses).

Why did he do that? In my opinion, that is another and whole different and really interesting story in and of itself. 

[Rob Rigg]

Don't you think it depends on the hole and the setting?

The snaggle toothed RR ties on the Hell hole at OMD looks absolutely bad ass - it really sends a psychological message.

At the same time, the sod faced bunker in the picture above would look ridiculous with RR ties (IMO).

I also dislike the RR ties on the Pete Dye course above because they do not seem necessary - whereas with the Hell Bunker they really show off the scale of what you are dealing with and literally give "teeth" to obstacle. Spectacular.

Could the monster bunker in Chip's first pic - can't believe I forgot the course/hole - have anything but RR ties? I think it would collapse without support or would need to be rebuilt on a regular basis which would be very expensive.

[David_Elvins]

Kalen-

Fair enough....I was honestly just wondering was there an engineering purpose that railroad ties perform that sod faces can not.

Railroad ties are a far more cost effective than sod walls  at preventing erosion in big bunkers in a coastal setting.  Sorry if that is too obvious an answer.  

Since placing sod also needs a flat base I would assume that placing sod may also not be effective on extreme terrain such as in your first photo.

EDIT: And from a merely aesthetic standpoint, the original hell bunker would make a good case studdy as it has had sod wall, railroad ties and a semi splashed face. 

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen-

Fair enough....I was honestly just wondering was there an engineering purpose that railroad ties perform that sod faces can not.

Railroad ties are a far more cost effective than sod walls  at preventing erosion in big bunkers in a coastal setting.  Sorry if that is too obvious an answer.  

Since placing sod also needs a flat base I would assume that placing sod may also not be effective on extreme terrain such as in your first photo.

David,

That was my understanding too, thanks for chiming in.

Overall, I think the way it was done at Old Mac is more aesthecially pleasing than stacked sod besides being more cost effect.  Especially how it appears that they weren't put in in a completely symmetric manner, given them an old rugged look.  I think it works.

[Eric Smith]

Here's a reference, found in Graves & Cornish Classic Golf Hole Design, p.50


sorry for the tiny print - I couldn't zoom in for a better snapshot without blurring the print.

[Jeff Fortson]

Is it me or did someone just "dis" the Road Hole Bunker? 


Jeff F.