Would "Calamity" have been considered a "redan" when it was built? What say ye?

[Mike_Cirba]

[JESII]

Looks like an adaption of the third at Merion East.

How much runway is there on the approach?

[Mike_Cirba]

Sully,

Aha!   You saw that too, eh? 

The article that Joe Bausch uncovered the other day that mentioned Hugh Wilson visiting Portrush brought this to mind.

Pretty good likeness, wouldn't you say?

[Tony_Muldoon]

[TEPaul]

"Would "Calamity" have been considered a redan when it was built?"


In my opinion, not at all. If a golf analyst is going to try to maintain something like that he is devolving so far into generalities as to make comparisons of various types of golf holes virtually meaningless.

Have you ever seen or played "Calamity" Mike?

There is something about it that doesn't show very well on that photo and that is if you want to play it as safe as it can be played you can essentially play to the left and just off the green and then just chip up from there.

Well, let me amend that. Now that Tony Muldoon just posted that higher shot of the hole you can much more clearly see exactly what I mean about the area left of that green.

[JESII]

I'd say it's a tremendous likeness based simply on playing Merion a couple dozen times, but never Portrush.

[Mike Policano]

Hi Mike, how's it going?

I didn't get a feel for a redan when I played Calamity.  It may be because my only thought was don't go right.  I might miss my flight if I have to go down to get my ball.  However, when I played Rock Creek Cattle, I thought the second par 3 on the back, 13 I think, played like Calamity in reverse with the big drop-off to the left.

Cheers

[J_ Crisham]

Mike,
       My memories of Calamity are that losing your tee shot to the right is death. the drop off is very significant. Merion's 3rd was a touch easier. I recall hitting a 4iron at Merion and a Driver at Portrush. Wind at Portrush can be very strong. I didn't consider Calamity to be a Redan as there isn't quite the slope to shape a ball in as you might see at Chicago Golf or Shoreacres redan holes (holes I am somewhat familiar with).
                                                                 Jack
                                                                       
                                                               

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks for the feedback fellows..

When I saw that picture of Calamity today, this is immediately what I thought of;




Yes, I know the drop off to the right isn't quite as severe, and it's probably not quite as uphill, and there is no bailout area to the left of the green, but I was struck by the orientation and shaping of the green, the basic "principle" of how to play the hole, and the visual similarities.

The fact that JES II saw the same thing without me saying a word I find quite telling.

Another interesting related fact is that William Flynn picked up on this hole concept with the 14th at Rolling Green, and the 8th hole at Lancaster being good examples.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I've been able to track down the exact date of the article from the Irish Independent, and it was April 10 of 1912:

There was no calamity until Colt changed the course in the 1930’s.

[Sean_A]

I'd say it's a tremendous likeness based simply on playing Merion a couple dozen times, but never Portrush.

Sully

It didn't hit me that Merion's 3rd was a Calamity until I was playing the 6th.  The walk from tee to fairway offers a second look at the 3rd.  During this walk it certainly occurred to me that it was a poor man's Calamity.  Mike is correct, the strategy of the hole is the same and the look is very similar.  However, Calamity's penalties for a miscue are more severe because the hole is more severe - more uphill, far deeper drop to the right and front and longer.  Despite the extra severity, there is a sliver of bailout to the left, but I can't imagine going for that area unless you are sure you can't make the carry to the green.  Why?  The rough over there is very choking and it is difficult to get a line on the ball.  

Whatever you think of the prospective holes, neither can be called a Redan by any stretch of the imagination.  

I think Tony is right.  If anything, Colt may have seen Merion's 3rd and copied the basic principle for Calamity because I don't believe Calamity existed in Wilson's day.  Its another puzzle for you Pine Valley freaks - did Colt have a look at Merion when he was in town?

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Whoa Sean, don’t be such a tease, have you ever seen a better example of a found hole than Calamity? The club purchased new land and invited Colt over.  I think you & I need to reacquaint ourselves with this beauty.

  If you look at the Scoresaver they identify where Bobby Locke played to all 4 rounds of the 1951 open (the yellow arrow is to the next tee).  As the new World Atlas of Golf reminds us, with a chip and a putt each day he was level par on the hole for the week.


This is what the Merion Visitor saw.  From the Club History.












I saw another picture of the Mann bunker this week I’ll try and find it.  The greatest lateral bunker of them all?

[Paul_Turner]

I don't see "Redan", but perhaps Colt borrowed from himself:  20 years earlier, the 11th at Beaconsfield (1913)

[Mike_Cirba]

This is a very cool discussion...thanks for the great information so far fellows..

[Mike_Cirba]

btw..it's also my understanding that Colt visited both the newly opened Merion and still developing Seaview in the 1913 timeframe, although I don't have my source(s) in front of me at the moment or recall exactly where I came to that understanding.

[Bill Gayne]

The 15th at Royal New Kent is the hole that I've played in the US that reminds me most of calamity. I don't think either hole plays like a redan.

[Joe Bausch]

btw..it's also my understanding that Colt visited both the newly opened Merion and still developing Seaview in the 1913 timeframe, although I don't have my source(s) in front of me at the moment or recall exactly where I came to that understanding.

I know I read this somewhere recently too Mike.  I'm pretty sure it was in the American Cricketer.  I'll have to try to find that amongst my photos.

[Jim Nugent]

Does Calamity's green slope front to back?

[Mike_Cirba]

Does Calamity's green slope front to back?

Nope Jim...it doesn't appear so.

Neither does Merion's 3rd, but some insist that it's still a redan anyway.   

[TEPaul]

"btw..it's also my understanding that Colt visited both the newly opened Merion and still developing Seaview in the 1913 timeframe, although I don't have my source(s) in front of me at the moment or recall exactly where I came to that understanding."

Mike Cirba:

For starters it may've been from the fact of that letter of Colt's to Hugh Wilson around 1920 when Colt mentioned to Wilson that Mrs Colt would like to be remembered to Mrs Wilson.

So where would they have met---in England or in Philadelphia?

It seems someone came up with a ship passenger manifest that showed Mrs Colt traveling with Harry over here in either 1913 or 1914 so obviously Colt and Wilson must have gotten together at Merion then. Maybe Harry and the missus actually stayed with Hugh and his blushing bride!

I don't think anyone has any ship passenger manifest listing of Mrs Wilson going to England with Hugh in 1912 or any other time, does one? But what do I know---maybe there are a ton of ship passenger manifest lists out there somewhere that have never been digitized!  

Don't worry, I do realize when that possible fact is mentioned to some of our iconoclasts of golf architect "LEGENDS" on here it is met with dismissals or complete silence.

[Tom_Doak]

The green at Calamity does not slope front to back, nor does it have much slope from left to right either.

Some of you guys insist on seeing Redans the way some Christians insist on seeing the image of Christ in inanimate objects.  Calamity is a great hole in its own right.

[Joe Hancock]

The green at Calamity does not slope front to back, nor does it have much slope from left to right either.

Some of you guys insist on seeing Redans the way some Christians insist on seeing the image of Christ in inanimate objects.  Calamity is a great hole in its own right.

There's hope for you yet. You didn't deny the existence of a Redan.....(inanimate smiley intended here)

Joe

[JESII]

The green at Calamity does not slope front to back, nor does it have much slope from left to right either.

Some of you guys insist on seeing Redans the way some Christians insist on seeing the image of Christ in inanimate objects.  Calamity is a great hole in its own right.

Tom,

Did anybody see a Redan there?

Mike was asking because it had been suggested, and supported that #3 at Merion was Redan...ish...

[TEPaul]

"The green at Calamity does not slope front to back, nor does it have much slope from left to right either.
Some of you guys insist on seeing Redans the way some Christians insist on seeing the image of Christ in inanimate objects.  Calamity is a great hole in its own right."


Tom Doak:

Thank you for that. Some of these "similarities" posts and "did this hole inspire that hole?" threads on this website have just gotten silly.

[Jim Nugent]

The green at Calamity does not slope front to back, nor does it have much slope from left to right either.

Some of you guys insist on seeing Redans the way some Christians insist on seeing the image of Christ in inanimate objects.  Calamity is a great hole in its own right.

Tom, do you consider Merion's 3rd to be a Redan?