[Jim Adkisson]

With a scant 18 months until the US Amateur is being played at Chambers Bay, I am wondering what they are planning for getting their greens in a decent shape...

I played 36 on Wednesday...beautiful day...the Sound was like glass, no rain, almost 60 degrees out, but the greens were in a VERY disapointing condition.

The caddies, marshalls and shop staff all said that there were "over 200 rounds per day" during the summer and that the greens were worn out...a group of maintenance folk were replacing the left side of the 10th green that day.

The greenkeepers were letting the length of the grass go very long...putting was tough, trying to get yourself to hammer the ball...3/4 of all putts were short..BUT...

the interesting problem was that the high holes, 4, 7, and 13 greens (8 being the exception) were in a severely worse condition than the rest of the course...any ideas why these greens would have more problems?  The elevation difference is severe on the knees, but I can't believe that it would be that much of an issue on the strain of grass they use on the greens...it looked like it might be a drainage issue, but why wouldn't that show on the "lower" sections of the course?

[Andy Troeger]

When I played early morning, #4 and #7 were not getting nearly as much sunlight due to the steep slope. It would seem like they would get more later in the day though, so that wouldn't seem to be the only factor.

[Adam Clayman]

Could it be a sub-grade issue?

I'm learning a little bit about the secrets to sand base.  Regional differences aside.

Can someone better describe the issues?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think this opens the discussion of Fescue as a high roundsof play grass. Bandon suffers when play exceeds 30,000 rounds.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

How slow?

As in shoulder turn on six foot putts slow.

Gents:

Have not played the course but in general terms when does conditioning begin to exert an impact on one's overall assessment. Or is that simply ignored and the elements of the layout alone can cover the day?

[Tom_Doak]

Tiger:

Pacific Dunes is still playing 40,000+ rounds per year and the greens are still fine.

For that matter, a bunch of people played Old Macdonald today ... the greens are less than six months old, and already they're starting to roll pretty good.

I have not seen Chambers Bay for some time, so can't comment on it directly, but fescue greens compared to bent greens will never be highly regarded.  Fortunately there aren't any bent greens in Bandon, and everyone accepts the greens for what they are -- which is VERY good, just not 11 on the Stimpmeter.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

There is always the reality that Pierce County spent $20+ million to build the facility.  High round counts or not, the project has $20 million in bonds to pay.  This is a tough business climate to achieve the performance Pierce County planners had hoped for with putting surfaces that are not performing.

I was out to peer over the edge over last weekend to see that #4 and #13 were very bare in areas.  As a local taxpayer, it concerns me that this is fast becoming a huge topic of conversation.  It should be an interesting story to follow as it unfolds.

Interestingly, John Ladenburg, the local County executive who pushed the Chambers project wasn't even close on his run to become Washington State Attorney General.  He is a Democrat. 

[RJ_Daley]

I wonder if Adam is onto something with questions about the subgrade.  Given that the site was an old gypsum plant, and the capping and subgrade along with sand brought in for rootzones seems of interest.  Can there be any toxins built up from such a site, and harmful gases seeping upwards?  It will be interesting to see how this progresses.  

the super hasn't posted a newsletter for a while...
http://www.chambersbaygolf.com/kemper/courses/layout10.asp?id=173&page=3564

[W.H. Cosgrove]

RJ Daley; Not sure that the Glacier Sand & Gravel operation ever contained a Gypsum plant.  It did supply high quality sand & gravel to the local economy and construction projects for much of the 20th century. 

What would be interesting is the actual derivation of the material used to build the greens.  If Jay Blasi is lurking, maybe he could let us know.  As I understand, the material was actually brought in from another supplier, Washington Rock Quarries (correction to earlier post). 

[Tom Naccarato]

I think some of you might be instilling panic before giving these greens--just over a year old, some time to further grow. Fescue is going to be like that and certainly Bobby (Jay & Bruce in this case) have been through this before with Spanish Bay. PB Co. didn't want to wait and ALL the grass was replaced. I feel fortunate to have played the fescue course there. It wasn't fast & firm, but it was becoming a work in progress.

Let these guys get it right. Chambers will work. I know it will.

[BVince]

This is clearly an issue with forcing a grass to work.  One thing I enjoyed most about reading the work of Cypress Point in Shackelford's book was:

"We had chemist analyze the varying soil of the sites of the fairways and greens and to advise us how to obtain the highest degree of fertility at the lowest cost.  We had a botanist to investigate all the natural grasses so as to guide us in the choice of seeds most suitable to the locality.  We had every sample of seed tested by at least two independent experts.  We obtained guarantees that the seed supplied would correspond with the samples.  We used varying mixtures of seed on different fairways....We sought the advice and guidance of the Advisory Section of the U.S. Golf Association on every conceivable problem." (p. 54)

Tom N - yeah the fescue may work but it seems to me that this goes against what a golf course architect is supposed to achieve.  WA is not Scotland or even Bandon for that matter.  The fescue grass will probably work some day, but much time, money, and concern is taking place when other suitable local grasses will work quite easily.  But then again, the whole design was developed based on the playing conditions of the fescue grass, thus the future of CB rides on forcing this grass to work.

Play will slow down this winter, but the growing conditions also struggle during this time.  My guess is that they will be forced to severly reduce the rounds played until the greens fully take.  In addition to bare conditions, the green speeds are really slow.  Although the course is a fun design, if the greens do not improve, this course will probably not find itself back in the USGA rotation.

[Ian Larson]

CHAMBERS BAY WILL BE JUST FINE

I love threads like these that bring out the posters who try to prove points by the rumor mill, bad assumptions and ill-informed facts. First of

all these are still young greens, immature grass. Immature fescue for the matter. They are still in the process of maturing while taking on

heavy traffic. I wont get into the chemistry and physiology of it, but its not the easiest thing to keep up with.

THOSE GREENS ARE DRAINING FINE.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE GREENSMIX IMPORTED FOR THE SANDBASE.

THERE ARE NO TOXINS AFFECTING TURF QUALITY.


Men, please get facts straight and speculation well informed before posting a bunch of bullshit that always gets posted when it comes

to posting agronomic issues on here. Its alot easier to post an opinion on architecture on here than it is agronomics and thats because

agronomics is backed up by science and ALOT of the postings that involve agronomics on here are bullshit. Especially by the misinformed.

Nobody on here knows the exact challenges that the super and those greens face day to day, and thats what you need to know before you

start throwing out claims and accusations about the greens.


Just like Tommy said, some are coming on here instilling panic. Who the hell are you to be doing such a thing? The super at Chambers is a

very talented and well respected man in the industry. HE'S ON TOP OF IT. AND SO IS THE USGA. For christs sake its 18 months away from

the Amateur!!!!!!  WHO THE HELL CARES IF THE GREENS ARE'NT AT TOURNAMENT QUALITY RIGHT NOW!!!!!!  The super doesnt. The USGA

doesnt. So why the hell should you??? 

Does anybody remember Oakmont coming out of their winter in April when they had the US Open in June?  They had a late snowfall and

spring frosts. Those greens were ready to go come June.


Let the experts worry about it. Until then keep the panic button off the thread.

[Adam Clayman]

While I can understand Ian's issues with the discussion, obviously something isn't being done optimally. One year is plenty of time for the fescue to establish.

The USGA is not the end all for the specs needed to grow grass everywhere. They revise the knowledge as they learn it, but, they do have to learn it. Take top dressing as an example. It was only a few years ago that the accepted reality was altered.

Whistling Straits example is a good reason to have these discussions.

[Jim Adkisson]

Much of the discussion brings up the fact that at Bandon and CP, there was a large analysis of what grasses would work the best for the local climate and soils...I suspect that similar work was done at Chambers Bay...

When I played early morning, #4 and #7 were not getting nearly as much sunlight due to the steep slope. It would seem like they would get more later in the day though, so that wouldn't seem to be the only factor.

Adam, this was my first thought also, although our first round was in overcast conditions, it was colder (less sunlight) on the 4th green, in the shadow of the cliffside/tall trees on the top...however in our second round, it was well lit up...I don't think that this would be the only factor, and I can't believe that the overnight temps. have been cold enough (or such a difference from the lower areas of the course) to be a factor.

Jim:

How slow?

As in shoulder turn on six foot putts slow.

Matt, it was much slower than our carpeting...for a six footer, you had to hit it like it was 12 feet uphill on the typical Poa green in Portland...long putts were like T-wedging from yards off the greens and up slopes at Bandon.

[RJ_Daley]

Ian, I think you are way off base in your hysterical response to a DISCUSSION!!!  No one I can see above is pointing fingers of criticism at the super.  For my part, I have enjoyed reading Wieneke's frequent newsletters on the website.  Speculation or discussion about the process is enlightening when followd up by a turf professional coming on here and rationally explaining things that have been speculated about.  You reaction is almost as overboard as some of the supers that went nuts when Shackelford wrote his satirical piece, "Dumb and Dumber".  

I for one have consistently supported supers on this site.  But, I'm not going to be shouted down with your hysterical cries of BS and such because I speculated in the form of a question:

Can there be any toxins built up from such a site, and harmful gases seeping upwards?

thus the question mark at the end of the sentence!!!

The super has been good at periodic newsletters, and that is why I've posted the link.  It is instructive to read some of his past comments as well.

As for the toxins, I know of another RTJjr course (University Ridge) that had a total failure after one year of growth of the turf on all greens that I don't blame on him, but the process of selecting a rootzone greensmix that was taken from Rock river sand that had a resident toxin in it.  These things hapen, and there is nothing wrong with any of us discussing these things.  

One of the most often encouraged aspects of GCSAA professional seminars is that the supers COMMUNICATE with members of their consuming public.   Communication doesn't go well with hysterical defensive reactions... try it sometime with some logical and rational explanations, sharing some turf science...

[Don_Mahaffey]

Ian,
The people who care about the quality of the greens right now are the people putting their credit cards on the counter in the pro shop.

Like it or not, when you charge what CB is charging, golfers expect a certain amount of conditioning. And like Tom Doak said, some of them have a hard time accepting fescue greens, but hearing from folks whose opinions I respect, the problems, right now, are a bit more than that.

The reality is, when you have a course that has received press like CB, people are going to flock there and they will be disappointed if the greens don't putt decently. It's a bit like you or I going to renowned restaurant only to be served a sub par meal. Conditioning is part of the equation. We as supers reveal in that because it allows us to show our stuff and make a good living doing it. But, there is also a flip side and when it's not good, people are going to talk.

I'll admit to not closely reading every post on this thread, but I didn't see anyone blaming the super, just speculation on what is going on...and putting a stop to that is a long, upstream swim. 

Speculating...or making a somewhat educated guess, I'd say there may have been some pressure to get play on the greens before they were ready to handle that kind of traffic. At least I've seen that before. Knowing about the folks involved on the agronomic side of things, I'd bet they got it right, and will make the adjustments needed to get the greens into tip top shape.

[Adam Clayman]

Don, Thanks for the perspective.

 

Isn't it true that up until recently, common knowledge was that fescue fairways and greens here in the US was not possible?

Since then, there have been several success stories, proving that old adage was inaccurate.
However, it's still a process and likely requires regional tweaks.

Paging DW...



 

[Tom Naccarato]

Don,
While you are correct, that its the people putting money down is a valid point; the panic being instilled is, well sort of premature. The course has been open for play just over a year and I think that point alone is worthy to allow them to time to let it mature. Its in a market that affords about four months of good golf weather--if that.

The choice of Fescue, while a challenge, will work in that climate. Especially in a climate that is much like Scotland (sorry to disagree with you Byron, but last year, I was afforded the opportunity of living in Lakewood and doing a little local historical research. Many Scots, including the founder of Tacoma CC came to the Tacoma-area because the climate was similar to their bonnie home. Why do you think they call one area, Fife? Also, fescue can and will grow perfectly in that cold climate just like there is a reason why Scotch Broom grows right on the highways and byways of the area; it was imported and flourished there.)

Chambers Bay is a great place and a remarkable stride for a commercially-successful golf architect who took a chance and built it. It proves that everything we have preached--the things we love about the sport--can and will be acceptable by the status quo. The boys at RTJII did a phenomenal job for the difficult, but beautiful site they had. The place is wonderful, and once it matures and the ability to run the ground becomes even more a factor in playing the course--you will all be eating your words.

[Joe Hancock]

Tommy,

Who has to eat their words later? I don't see anything along those lines......oh, and welcome back!

Apart from a few thin skinned-type responses, I think there is something to be learned by discussing some of the challenges with establishing fescue greens. I also think it might help to enlighten folks about when and where fescue is acceptable....and I'm not saying it is out of place at Chambers by any means.

Hope you are well, Tommy!

Joe

[Tom Naccarato]

Crazy Joe,
thanks for the warm welcome back, and you are correct, I might be flying off of the handle, but there are some that are going to be quick to condemn, and frankly this is the exact reason why fescue isn't at Spanish Bay--because it never had a chance to fully mature before the condemnation occurred.

I say let the architect and the superintendent get this thing right and then condemn them. My feelings are that we'll be enjoying the place for years to come. It also looks like I'll be in Pierce County during New Years week, and if that is the case, i expeect to be freezing my ass off on the links of Chambers--if its open!

[BVince]

Tom N -

I am not saying that the Fescue will not work.  I have full confidence that it will take, although slowly, and it will be a great surface when the Championships take place.  I stand by my point that I feel they are forcing the fescue to grow when other local grasses are proven to thrive in these weather conditions.  I currently live in Lakewood and can share that we had 6 months of great weather here to include October.  The course has been open about 17 months now and they have had to reseed a couple of times, which is costly.

I am very familiar with Tacoma C&GC and its history.  I assume you are talking about Alexander Baillie who was the boss of Tacoma's Balfour Guthrie Co and later founded the club (which was not where it is presently located) in 1894.  I understand your link to the similarities in weather between Scotland and University Place.

I enjoy Chambers Bay and I fully desire to see it prosper as I live only 5 mins away.  It is a wonderful addition to the PNW and people are very excited to have the Championships.  Hopefully the Fescue will take soon and the putting speeds will also begin to improve.  Some locals would rather not pay to play there because of the greens, therefore it is becoming a financial issue and a topic of conversation.

This thread can take place without outrageous attacks. 

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tommy,
Did it look like I'm in a panic? Eat my words?
I said give 'em time and they'll get it...who said anything bad about fescue. I worked in the NW, I know fescue can work there, but I also know how management companies can do things.
The fescue needs time and "rest". Packing the golf course full of people before it's ready for all the wear and tear will not help.

[Tom Naccarato]

Don,
Not you, but more the originator of this post and others. No, this isn't an outrageous attack Byron, no different then the questions which you guys put forth. (how would you feel if you were the superintendent, reading these posts?)

You need to go and talk to the superintendent. maybe even talk to RTJII staff to quell those fears. Maybe, just maybe they are experimenting with a better, more perfect strain. I feel communication is a key before pointing and shooting. they deserve that for as wonderful as the course has come out. Also, 6 months of GREAT golfing weather would be a stretch. I'll give you four months, and even then that four months would be broken-up in pieces! When I say GREAT golfing weather, I'm referring to weather where one can enjoy the round without the major elements, other then wind influencing play. I know just how much you guys like to play in 30 degree weather while its sprinkling. (Which in SoCal speak would be a downpour!)

Byron, For what its worth, I was living in Ballie's estate, Waloma during my time in Lakewood last year. (3 months) I wlll be staying there again New Year's week.

[BVince]

Actually we did have 6 months of great golfing weather.  May through October.  Not every single day was perfect but the majority were.  October was gorgeous, I played golf in short sleeves, but you don't have to believe that if you choose not to.

I would not mind if the Super read these post unless his response was similar to Ian's.  I have not said anything that I regret. 

BRYon

[Tom Naccarato]

Bryon, I still think you should go talk to the super and ask before getting on a viewed website giving an opinion that might not be accurate or has an explanation. Trust this from someone that has point and shot many times in his career!

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