Another big fan of Monroe

[John Foley]

Finally had the chance to get out and play Monroe this week and what a treat.

The greens are phenomenal and far and away make the course. The small 9th , the trough through the 18th and wonderfull moving 5th we're some of the best.

The routing is great (I love the feeling of playing the course and having no idea where you are in relation to the clubhouse) and as a test it's challenging, but not overbearing.
The recent work by Gil is complete. The bunkers are in great shape. Many tree's have been cleared (they could use to loose a few more thought) and from what I had seen in the past it has opened up the course tremendously.

Here is the only pic I took of the course, 17th green from the fw.



A pic of Ross's original routing plan



A pic of Gill Hanse's plan



a few BTW's

Monroe used to be one of Ran's Next 50, but it's no longer listed there.

Did Golf's Most Beloved visit and not post his thoughts yet??

Has there been a more glorious week for late fall golf in the Northeast / Ohio Valley as this past week? Not cloud all week and temps approaching 70. Unreal.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's another shot of #17:

[Dan Herrmann]

John - how'd you like 18 green with its diagonal swale?  A most excellent green!

Monroe is also an incredible walk.  Laura and I played last year in just over 3 hours walking. 

[mark chalfant]

John  and Dan I totally agree !     

One charming hole after another  on ideal rolling terrain. Moreover it has no 'tunnel drawback"  that slightly  dilutes Plainfields back nine.  Monroe =  8 on the doak scale

[Scott Witter]

Monroe has always been my favorite Ross course in the Rochester area, a market that has 5 Ross courses (6) if you count both the east and west courses at Oak Hill.  A good friend and contractor Jack Faery and his crew did the restoration and renovation work there for Gil Hanse.  The course was solid before the new work was done, it is now very strong and a real treat to play and see

[Mike_Cirba]

How good is #13 as a par three!?!   

[Greg Holland]

What is the 18 green like -- on both plans there are 2 lines running across the green.  Is it a biarittz type green?

On my home course, we have a drawing for a  par 3 by Ross with a swale/depression, but running on a bit of a diagonal instead of perpendicular to the tee shot.  That is not how the hole plays today, but he designed it that way. 

[Mike_Cirba]

What is the 18 green like -- on both plans there are 2 lines running across the green.  Is it a biarittz type green?

On my home course, we have a drawing for a  par 3 by Ross with a swale/depression, but running on a bit of a diagonal instead of perpendicular to the tee shot.  That is not how the hole plays today, but he designed it that way. 

Greg,

That's quite a good description.    There is a pronounced hollow running through the green, set at a diagonal.   

You can imagine the variety of shot options one might encounter depending on hole location.   

Monroe is tremendous fun from start to finish.   The comments are spot on and I find it to be one of my very favorite Donald Ross courses, similar to Plainfield in some respects, yet with its own panache and character.

The first three holes are very good, but numbers 4 and 5 are both incredibly creative uses of natural landforms and then it just hums along wonderfully from there.

[Mike_Cirba]

One other thing I might point out...

The glacial land of upstate NY is wonderful for golf.   I have been fortunate to have spent a bit of time in the area over the past several years, and when folks talk of drumlins and eskers and all those geological terms, I used to glaze over.

However, what those terms mean to the golf layman is wonderful "micro-contours" within broad "macro-contours".

The land heaves and twists, but following broader swaths of slopes, but filled with bowls and pimply rises, and the variety is absolutely infinite in complexity and unique presentation and off-balance playability.

[Greg Holland]

Thanks Mike.  Sounds fun.  How deep is the depression, on our drawings the depression was only 1 foot deep, but it went all the way across the green on an uphill 200+ par 3 (with the green sloping back to front significantly due to the uphill contour).  It is a good hole now, but I think it would be even more fun if we put that swale back in the green.

[Mike_Cirba]

Greg,

It's not deep.   If I were to guess I'd say something in the range of 18-24 inches but it comes at such a oblique angle that you have to consider it on virtually any and every shot from the approach until the ball is in the hole.

[JNC Lyon]

Monroe is a fantastic golf course.  It is my second favorite course in the Rochester area behind the West Course at Oak Hill.  It is laid out over ideal terrain and soil.  This means the golfer faces a course that is firm and fast and filled with uneven lies.  The course has improved dramatically over the past year under the supervision of Gil Hanse.  The new bunker scheme on 1 has moved the hole from a terrible, misfit starting hole to a very solid, strategy opener.  4-9 are all unique and tremendous in their own way.  15-18 is a great finishing stretch.  The greens at 17 and 18 are two of the most unique and fun complexes I have seen anywhere.  My qualms with the course are as follows:

The par fives, except for the classic 9th, are very weak.  3, 12, and 14 are all quite short, but they also lack any real defense.  12 is a terrible golf hole.  The non-Ross green is long and right of the original greensite.  The new hole is very awkward, using trees as a primary defense on the second shot.  The green itself is an ugly monstrosity that has no place on a classic links.  3 and 14 are fine holes, but they have no strategic options other than to blast two shots straight at the green.  Both seem to be filler holes: 3 is followed by the fantastic 4th (the best hole on the course IMO), and 14 is sandwiched in between a beautiful sidehill par three and a dramatic mid-length par four.

The first three holes on each nine are substantially weaker than the rest of the course.  1 is a good hole tee to green but still has an non-Ross greensite.  2 has a great tilted green but has no real strategic merit.  3 has another solid green but nothing much else.  10 is ridiculously wide off the tee, and the modified cape approach doesn't make up for this freeway width.  11 is a strange hole, with trees providing the real challenge off the tee.  The green is interesting but it is also not an original Ross. 12 is horrid.

As mediocre as the bad holes are, the good holes are Ross at his best, routed over some dramatic landforms.  This creates exciting blind shots and wild greens.

[archie_struthers]

 

One of our poster here ...one  P gert.....probably knows more about Monroe than anyone !

feel free to channel him for more!

sorry P  ....but if the shoe fits !

[Ed Oden]

I played Monroe last weekend and agree with those who think it is a gem.  Not only is it a first rate design, but the maintenance meld is absolutely perfect.  Monroe's firm/fast conditions are reminiscent of Huntingdon Valley's, perhaps even a smidge better since, amazingly, the course seems to be blessed with a sandy soil base.

I thought about posting photos but, sadly, this site's current configuration is just not conducive to quality picture viewing.  So instead, I decided to add to this thread with a link to a slideshow of the course...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157622455301816/show/

...or if you want to know what you are looking at, click here for a set of individual photos...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157622455301816/

On the second link, click on a thumbnail to pull up a picture and then click on "All Sizes" above the photo to see it in large format.

Ed

[Matt_Ward]

The info that's been posted sums up quite nicely what's there -- people who get the opportunity to play it should do so and I concur with what JNC has stated on the best / worst holes at the course.

I can remember years back when I was in the Rochester area and I knew so little about the place -- a good friend suggested the course to me and I was quite pleased with the time spent there.

[Dan Herrmann]

The golf season is short in Rochester, but if you have the funds to be a member at a private club, you'll find it hard to beat.  Monroe, Oak Hill, Country Club of Rochester, and Irondiquoit (sic) are all Ross gems located within a few miles of each other.

[Ed Oden]

While I'll let the photo links I posted earlier stand, I will post a few pictures of the 13th hole since it is one of the best par 3s I've played in awhile.  192 yards from the back tees, it plays slightly uphill to a green as firm as good handshake... 



A closer view...



But what I really loved about this hole is the green.  From the tee it looks like a fairly standard back to front tilt.  Yet you can see from this picture that there is actually a ridge about 2/3 of the way into the green beyond which the slope is away toward the back...



All in all, a terrific hole which could be special with some tree removal beyond to expose the skyline green.

Ed

[JNC Lyon]

Ed Oden,

Great pictures of the 13th Hole at Monroe.  I, however, have a different take on this hole.  I've played the course 5 or 6 times.  Each time, I try to convince myself that 13 is a great par three.  It is long; it has a well-placed greensite; it is testing; and it is tough hole in between two scoring holes at 12 and 14.  Yet whenever I play number 13, it is never a fun hole.  The green is rock hard and slopes away at the back of the green.  Anything that lands on the right side of the green will roll to the back edge or over into a terrible lie in the poorly-cut long fringe.  Any ball that lands on the front-right portion of the green will roll off the left side of the green into a terrible lie in the poorly-cut long fringe. Any ball that lands short left of the green will roll 50 yards back down the fairway.  The tee shots that will hold the green are:

a) a low bullet that lands just short at the dead center of the green.
b) a bouncing iron shot that lands in a spot the size of a bath towel just of the short right bunkers.
c) a well-struck iron shot that lands in the middle of the left side of the green.
d) a 7-iron hit by a freak college player at the Monroe Invitational.

There is not enough margin for error on what amounts to a mid-iron par three for most players.  There is no place to miss around the green that leaves a reasonable chance at an up-and down.  I think the hole would be better if:

a) The green was larger and not so severe in firmness and front-to-back cant.
b) The right greenside bunker was removed.  In my mind, the green would set up perfectly for a running draw that landed short right of the green.  Unfortunately, this area is so small that it is hardly a viable option.  If Robert Trent Jones built that right greenside bunker in the 1960s, people would (rightfully) scream that Jones hated the ground game and was designing a one-dimensional hole.  If the right greenside bunker were gone and the Redan-style options were opened up, I  would then be okay with the current state of the green.  The Redan option would be an alternative to bombing away at the green with a 4-iron and hoping to find a soft spot.

Overall, I think the current hole is set beautifully into its surroundings.  Ross, always the master router, did a great job of hoping from hill to ridge on this hole.  The green and its surrounds are simply too severe for a hole of its length. The 13th is the weakest of the par threes at Monroe.  I find the great short 8th and the brilliant, long uphill 6th to be far superior.

[JNC Lyon]

Dan Herrmann,

Don't forget Brook Lea in that list of Ross gems in Rochester.  I would put it at a notch above Irondequoit.  It possesses a good set of par threes and some very interesting par fours as well.  Great greens include: 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 11, 13, 16, 17, 18.

[Keith OHalloran]

Played Monroe for the first time today. JNC is right on with most of his thoughts. The course s really fantastic, with some spectacular greens. If he follow through on all the tree work that Hanse recommends, the course can get even better.

[Ronald Montesano]

1. Is the green harder/firmer than other greens on the course?

2. If yes, then why?

[Dan Byrnes]

I always for get about Monroe when it Rochester.  The place certainly has more than its share of solid golf courses.  I have an invite I need to fulfill at CCR should make it a couple day trip and play some of the others.

Dan

[JNC Lyon]

1. Is the green harder/firmer than other greens on the course?

2. If yes, then why?

Ron,

It's not necessarily firmer.  The issue on 13 is that the green is fairly small, and the back half runs away from the player.  Often, 1 of 2 things will happen.  Either the golfer hits a solid iron shot into the middle of the green that rolls over the back into a bird's nest lie OR the shot hits just short of the green, resulting in a either another bird's nest lie or a 30-yard touch shot from short left.  Think 3 at Oak Hill East, but with front-to-back slope on the back portion.  It is a very cool hole, and it is well-routed.  It just can be too extreme, and it's probably my least favorite of the par threes (not too much of an insult, I might note, because 6,8, and 16 are all superb).

I have to get out to Monroe again soon--maybe one of our Golfweek rater friends can arrange a trip 

Dan,

Let me know if you're around.  We'll get drinks at the very least, and at most we'll get a few of the other GCA characters from the area to join for a game.

[Dan Herrmann]

John - will do.

What's sad about Monroe is the lack of respect it gets in Rochester.  My non-golfing sister-in-law knew all about Oak Hill, CCR, etc, but kind of was surprised when I told her how amazing Monroe was to play.

She had been to their clubhouse for some events, but said she never heard any of her friends talking about Monroe's golf course.

[Keith OHalloran]

JNC,
You have played the course more than I have, but I am not sure I agree with your opinion of 13. We agree that it is a great looking hole, and sits well on the property. What I am not sure about is whether or not it is too exacting. I played the blue tees, and had 162. To be fair, my ball landed on the front, and rolled down the hill, but the green did not seem unfair for that length shot. The 11th at Shinnecock in widely praised, and it asks for a very exacting shot from 160. I am not sure that it an unfair test.
Then gain, I could be biased, I loved the hole, and thought almost every green complex was superb.