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John Blain

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Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« on: November 06, 2008, 06:54:51 PM »
To those who follow the national amateur scene:

http://www.golfweek.com/story/holtgrieve-feature-110608

-John

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2008, 06:58:24 PM »
That's interesting...he turned pro at 50, just like Sigel.  Did Jay turn down the job?  I think Sigel would be a great Walker Cup captain.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

TEPaul

Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2008, 07:11:06 PM »
Ronald:

I'm pretty sure Jay Sigel was a Walker Cup captain, and I believe even a playing captain. It's lookupable but unless my memory is going I think he was the captain, and playing captain, when the Walker Cup was at Pine Valley, a club he's belonged to for years.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 08:53:38 PM by TEPaul »

JohnV

Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2008, 07:15:11 PM »
Holtgrieve did turn pro, but he was reinstated as an amateur in 2005.

I hope the USGA will name Tim Jackson as the Walker Cup Captain in the future.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2008, 08:50:33 PM »
yup, 83 an d85...85 was Pine Valley...good memory.  Good luck, Jim.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2008, 09:31:53 PM »
JPBlaine,

I'm shocked that the USGA would name someone who not only turned Professional, but who played on the PGA Tour (SR), not so long ago.

Many years ago the USGA had a perceived problem, albeit silent, with the number of former Pros who were making it to the quarter finals and beyond, of the USGA Mid-Amateur.

I'm puzzled by the choice, but, then again, my opinion wasn't solicited.

TEPaul

Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2008, 09:44:15 PM »
Pat:

With what you said there on post #5 there could be one helluva discussion on this website but it might get sort of contentious so I don't know that it'd be worth it.

Dean Stokes

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2008, 09:51:17 PM »
I'm not shocked about the selection but maybe a little surprised.

I would have thought there were enough good candidates for selection without having to choose a gentleman who was so recently in the professional ranks.

Having said that, I had the good fortune to caddy for Jim at The Coleman last year at Seminole. Great guy and a heck of a golfer.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2008, 12:04:45 AM »
JPBlaine,

I'm shocked that the USGA would name someone who not only turned Professional, but who played on the PGA Tour (SR), not so long ago.

Many years ago the USGA had a perceived problem, albeit silent, with the number of former Pros who were making it to the quarter finals and beyond, of the USGA Mid-Amateur.

I'm puzzled by the choice, but, then again, my opinion wasn't solicited.


Pat,

I am as surprised as you.

As good an amateur as Jim was, the very idea that he played but recentlyas a professional should bar him from captaining a Walker Cup team. What on earth is the USGA thinking? There are a host of life-long amateur players that are equipped for the job.

This is a downright stupid decision.

Bob

Jeff Fortson

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2008, 12:17:45 AM »
As someone waiting for their reinstatement I can say that I totally embrace pros waiting a "fair" amount of time out of competition and then being allowed to regain their amateur status back with open arms from the amateur world.  Maybe not a life long touring pro, but certainly guys that were club pros for a short time or tried minitours for a little while.  I see nothing wrong with that.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2008, 07:24:02 AM »
As a St. Louisian I must come to the defense of the selection of Jim Holtgrieve as Walker Cup captain.

When I began caddying in grade school, one of the members at our club was Jim Jackson.  Mr. Jackson was on 2 Walker Cups in the 1950s, and although we was in his very early 50s when I began as a caddie, he was still winning state tournaments and a dominant force in St. Louis golf.  Mr. Holtgrieve was the young gun, belonged to the golf club less than 1/2 mile from Mr. Jackson's club and was beating Mr. Jackson in some big events.

Holtgrieve quickly soared to success in national events, and even reached the finals of the British Am one summer.  In addition to his success in multiple Walker Cups, Masters (making the cut twice I believe) and other national events, he was also influential behind the scenes.  Holtgrieve was one of those involved in getting the USGA Mid-Am started, and then won the very first Mid-Am, at Bellerive C.C. in St. Louis.

Later he was also influential in creating the Metropolitan Amateur Golf Association, which is now the preeminent St. Louis area golf association.  Because of the addition of this local golf association, the St. Louis golf scene is much richer in the variety of tournaments available and in holding all of the local USGA qualifiers.

Although Mr. Holtgrieve did turn professional as an attempt at sharing in the riches of the Senior Tour, I believe this was a decision based on financial needs.  As an example of the high regard Mr. Holtgrieve holds in the golf community, at one of his early starts as a professional, as he walked onto the practice tee, Arnold Palmer called his friend to join him so that they could practice together.  (Holtgrieve and Palmer had developed a friendship while playing together in past Masters.)

Now Mr. Holtgrieve has regained his amateur status, he is still very active with the USGA's Mid-Am committee, and still involved with St. Louis's Metropolitan Amateur Golf Association.  I think anyone who really knows Mr. Holtgrieve and knows all of the wonderful things he has done for golf in addition to just his competitive record, realizes that the USGA did something very right in selecting Mr. Holtgrieve as captain of the Walker Cup team.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 07:32:10 AM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2008, 07:51:00 AM »
Bill Shamleffer,

Quote

Holtgrieve was one of those involved in getting the USGA Mid-Am started..

Exactly HOW was Holtgrieve involved in getting the USGA Mid-Am started ?

JESII

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2008, 08:09:25 AM »
For reasons unknown to me, the USGA has clearly softened thier stance on players turning professional and then returning to the amateur ranks.

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2008, 09:15:20 AM »
Bill Shamleffer,

Quote

Holtgrieve was one of those involved in getting the USGA Mid-Am started..

Exactly HOW was Holtgrieve involved in getting the USGA Mid-Am started ?

http://www.metga.org/Holtgrieveamateur.htm
(This article is from April 2007)
(I am not a friend of Mr. Holtgrieve or in any way involved in these organizations.  The point of my posting is to inform those on this site who are not familiar with this man, other than his published competitive record.  This is a man who has contributed to golf in a variety of ways.  Whether a reinstated amateur should be considered for Walker Cup captaincy is not an issue I have an opinion upon, and I do not take issue with any ones opinion per that matter.  However, I do want any one who reads this discussion to have some additional knowledge about Mr. Holtgrieve.
Bill Shamleffer 11/7/2008)

Back To The Future:
Jim Holtgrieve Set To Resume Amateur Career

By Bill Burton

It’s been almost 30 years since the legend of Jim Holtgrieve developed and began flourishing in St. Louis golf.

Amateur golfers might want to prepare themselves for part two of the Jim Holtgrieve saga. After nearly two decades as the area’s most prominent amateur, Holtgrieve has spent much of the past decade competing on golf’s senior professional tour.

In what could be a great shot in the arm for amateur golf, “The Griever” will officially return to the area’s amateur circuit starting in June when the United States Golf Association once again grants him his full amateur standing.

Exhibiting the charisma and daring of one of his idols, Arnold Palmer, Holtgrieve captured the fancy of St. Louis golf fans with his prodigious length and aggressive style in the 1970s. Those characteristics wowed fans and intimidated opponents in local and state championships.  Holtgrieve popularized the use of a 1-iron as a driving weapon and used the club with length and deadly accuracy.

His ability to overpower courses and opponents started in the 1970s in St. Louis District Golf Association events and continued with the multiple victories in Missouri Amateur and Metropolitan Amateur Golf Association events through the 1980s and 1990s. During the early 1980s, Holtgrieve’s acclaim advanced well beyond the shadow of the Arch, however.

Holtgrieve enhanced his national stature when he won the inaugural USGA Mid-Amateur Championship in 1981 at Bellerive. Holtgrieve, then a 33-year-old businessman, was integral in the creation of the event for career amateurs aged 25 and older, and played a role in securing the event for Bellerive in September 1981.  When he beat Ohioan Bob Lewis Jr., 2 up in the first-ever event, he was able to add a USGA national championship to a resume that remains rivaled by few in St. Louis golf history.

In his prime, during the 1980s, Holtgrieve played in four Masters, making the cut twice, and made the cut twice at Jack Nicklaus’ Memorial Invitational in Dublin, Ohio. In 1980, representing the United States at the World Amateur Team Championship at Pinehurst, Holtgrieve helped the U.S. to a dominating win over 38 nations. His 285 total finished third behind Hal Sutton and Taiwan’s T.C. Chen. That same year, Holtgrieve advanced to the semifinals of the U.S. Amateur before dropping a 3&2 decision to Sutton.

In 1983, Holtgrieve advanced to the championship of the British Amateur before losing to Wales’ Philip Parkin.  The wins and high finishes afforded Holtgrieve the opportunity to represent the United States in three Walker Cup matches. 

In 1998, at age 51, Holtgrieve elected to take a stab at professional golf on the Senior PGA Tour (now the Champions Tour). He debuted at the 1998 Boone Valley Classic, posting a T13 to earn $22,750.  It was the first check in an eight-year tour career that totaled $1,395,002 in earnings.

While he had numerous top 20 finishes in his 122 pro starts, his fourth start, at the 1999 Home Depot Invitational in North Carolina, was his finest. Holtgrieve finished play with the lead only to watch as Bruce Fleisher birdied to pass him by a shot at the 54 th hole.

Now, as he approaches age 60, Holtgrieve is intent on resuming a full amateur slate of events, both locally and outside the area. He has no plans to tip-toe back into amateur golf.

“I’m not coming back to play senior golf,” said Holtgrieve. “I want to test myself against these young guys.  I still think and hope I can be competitive.”

Holtgrieve’s interest in returning to the amateur ranks includes an opportunity to hold one of golf’s most prestigious honors, captain of the United States Walker Cup team. Holtgrieve’s amateur record and his connections with some of the prominent members of the United States Golf Association have put him on a short list of future candidates. Recent conversations with USGA President Walter Driver convinced Holtgrieve the honor could be his if he returned to the amateur ranks. “Walter said this year’s selection came down between Buddy Marucci and me.

“I think my chances are pretty good,” Holtgrieve said. “I would think that might not happen until 2011 though.”

Marucci, named captain of the 2007 U.S. team that will play at Royal County Down in Northern Ireland later this year, will likely retain the captaincy in 2009, or so Holtgrieve surmises.

“The matches come to Merion in 2009 and Buddy’s a member there,” Holtgrieve said. “That would only make sense that he’d serve as captain at Merion. So I would think my first real opportunity would not come until 2011 when the matches return to Great Britain and Ireland.”

In the meantime, St. Louis golfers will get a glimpse of Holtgrieve at the Metropolitan Amateur Championship, and Mid-Amateur and Senior Amateur qualifiers. One of his first appearances will be at the USGA Senior Open qualifier, June 18 at Bellerive.

“I’m planning to play the Metropolitan and state events and perhaps a few four-ball events,” said Holtgrieve who now works for TRG/Callaway, a golf accessories manufacturer in Maryland Heights.

“I’m looking forward to having some fun,” Holtgrieve added. “I remember Jimmy Jackson won amateur events over five decades, so it’s not unprecedented. I am expecting to be competitive.   I want to see just how I stack up against these guys now. There are some great young players out here and I want to see for myself if I still have it.”

Bill Burton is the Director of Marketing/Handicap Services for the Metropolitan Amateur Golf Association
and a long-time contributor to golf publications in St. Louis. He can be reached at bill@metga.org.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 09:43:16 AM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

TEPaul

Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2008, 09:24:19 AM »
While I'm sure I can understand the sentiments of those on this thread who say they are shocked that Jim Holtgrieve was selected as the Walker Cup captain or even shocked he would be considered by the USGA as a Walker Cup captain (even though I do not agree with those who say and feel that), I would ask them to reconsider their feelings and what they are really saying when they proclaim they are shocked.

The Rules of Amateur Status are pretty interesting and always have been (everyone interested in the subject should take the time to actually read them).

Basically the lose of amateur status happens in two ways:

1. Those who actually violate USGA amateur status Rules as amateurs without declaring themselves professionals.
2. Those who formally declare themselves professionals consciously giving up their amateur status.

Holtgrieve did the latter in declaring himself a professional and playing on the Champions Tour for six years.


Now look at the USGA Amateur Status reinstatement Rules and procedures.

Each individual puts in an amateur status reinstatement application which is fairly lengthy and detailed explaining everything he has done as a professional and for how long and when the last time was he played golf for remuneration. These applications are generally initially submitted to the player's local or regional or state Amateur golf association that operates under the auspices of the USGA. A committee of that local or regional or state amateur golf association analyzes the particulars of each application for reinstatement, contacts the applicants and then votes on the application and if it approves the application it sends it on to the USGA for their consideration and a decision and waiting period time before expected reinstatement.

As far as I know that's the way it's always been done. I know this because I was on one of those regional and state golf associations and committees and even ran one of those amateur status committees for maybe 5 years over which time we processed probably up to a hundred amateur status reinstatement applications.

Were any applications turned down over that time? Yes. Were the vast majority of them approved? Yes.

But what I would ask those who purport to be shocked at Jim Holtgrieve's selection as the Walker Cup captain in 1911 to reconsider is their view and opinion of how a reinstated amateur should be treated and viewed, short term and long term and for the rest of his career as a golfer after the USGA reinstates him as an amateur golfer.

Do these people actually believe that the reinstated amateur and his reputation in the future as an amateur golfer should in some way be considered to be CONDITIONAL or LIMITED? Do these people believe that a reinstated amateur should be considered by amateur golfers who have always been amateurs to be someone who should perceptively play amateur golf or be involved in amateur golf affairs with some little red "P" (for professional) attached to him somehow making it clear that he was once a professional and is therefore in some strange way impure and not a REAL amateur ever again? Somehow that to me smacks of holier-than-thou Salem Massachussetts witch hunts or Hester Prine being forced to wear a red "A" on her dress everwhere she went!

I think those who purport to be shocked at Holtgrieve's selection as the 2011 Walker Cup captain are feeling and actually suggesting that very thing in some way even if they may have something of a hard time actually admitting it in that particular vein.

How Victorian and essentially unfair is that? In my opinion, it is mightily Victorian and unfair! It sort of sounds like it intends to send the message--eg "You can come back but never think you can REALLY be one of US again!"

If THAT is the way the USGA and their Amateur Status Rules and Regulations intended reinstated amateurs to be or be treated then they probably should just not grant people who had played professionally or who had taken remuneration for golf AMATEUR reinstatement at all. But that is not the way it has ever been done and hopefully never will be.

Jim Holtgrieve had a very long and impressive amateur career, and I, for one, would not like to see that amateur career or even the perception of it minimized, limited, conditioned or qualified in any way at all because he was once a professional but now is an amateur golfer again. And that includes consideration and selection as the Walker Cup captain for his impressive amateur career including numerous times playing on the Walker Cup.

Again, welcome back to the amateur ranks, Jim Holtgrieve, and congratulations on your selection as the 2011 Walker Cup captain. I do know you and will never forget that match we had one time in the Crump Cup, it was one of my most memorable in competitive golf and one of the best learning experiences I ever had in golf. You're a good guy with a great amateur golf career and you very much deserve this selection, in my opinion.

Now, pick and captain a powerful team and win the USGA's amateur Walker Cup in 2011 for the old Red, White and Blue!   ;)




« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 09:41:16 AM by TEPaul »

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2008, 02:32:22 PM »
Tom,

I must say your panegyrics in support of Holtgrieve,  had me running to the books to see whether we were discussing Mandela or Ghandi.

My point is that a Venetian courtesan couldn't retire and run a convent and a former professional should not run a Walker Cup team. I have no personal animus toward Jim Holtgrieve, I just think the selection a mistake.

Bob

JohnV

Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2008, 02:47:22 PM »
Quite a few years ago, a member of the US Mid-Amateur Committee was concerned about reinstated amateurs playing in the Championship.  He wrote a letter to Joe Dey at the USGA about it and asked to have a meeting with him. 

Joe's reply was, "I would be happy to have a meeting with you regarding this issue, but please be advised that I also oppose the death penalty."

The member of the committee told Joe he would pass on trying to convince him.

Jim had a great amateur career and the fact that he tried to play as a professional for a few years once he turned 50 should not bar him from consideration in my opinion.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2008, 07:11:42 PM »

Quite a few years ago, a member of the US Mid-Amateur Committee was concerned about reinstated amateurs playing in the Championship.  He wrote a letter to Joe Dey at the USGA about it and asked to have a meeting with him.

Joe's reply was, "I would be happy to have a meeting with you regarding this issue, but please be advised that I also oppose the death penalty."

The member of the committee told Joe he would pass on trying to convince him.

That story is a complete fabrication.

Joe Dey left the USGA in 1968.
He was neither active nor tangentially involved with the USGA when the Mid-Amateur was being formulated and conducted.


Jim had a great amateur career and the fact that he tried to play as a professional for a few years once he turned 50 should not bar him from consideration in my opinion.

We disagree


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2008, 07:15:46 PM »
Bill Shamleffer,

That's a nice article.

There's no doubt that Jim was a terrific golfer.

I believe he also helped get the Bellerive Golf Club to host the first Mid-Am.

But, how was he involved in getting the Mid-Am started ?

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2008, 08:58:42 PM »
Tom Paul and I will never agree on this one.  Golf should look to tennis and just become an open sport.  When they were in college (summertime) and right before tennis became open, Arthur Ashe and Stan Smith were making more in endorsements, under the table appearance money and such.  Golf is headed in the same direction.  An example was Michelle Wie and even Tiger's dad was on Nike's payroll, was he not?  It is becoming embarrassing and with agents out there, it will get worse.  Let everyone compete in any event, pros and amateurs alike.  If there is no prize money then fine, everyone competes for a trophy.
I remember in senior tennis events, players couldn't wait to have a chance at Pancho Gonzales who entered some local events.
Let the Walker Cup be a no prize money event, draw some entry restrictions, no tour wins or something and let everyone have at it.  This captain pick is probably a nice guy who is being criticized because he took some money for playing golf?  Who on this site hasn't played golf for some amount of money?

"There will always be inequities in life, there is nothing we can do about it."
President John Adams

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2008, 10:23:35 PM »
Quote
he tried to play as a professional for a few years

He earned $1.4 million in his eight years as a pro....that seems like someone who gave professional golf a real shot.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

TEPaul

Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2008, 12:21:26 AM »
“My point is that a Venetian courtesan couldn't retire and run a convent and a former professional should not run a Walker Cup team.”

Bob Huntley:

That’s quite an analogy to describe a reinstated amateur golfer.


“Tom Paul and I will never agree on this one.  Golf should look to tennis and just become an open sport.”

Lynn:

You’re right, we will never agree on golf becoming an open sport. Golf should look to tennis becoming an “open” sport as exactly the thing never to do, in my opinion. Compared to the grass roots popularity tennis once enjoyed with its amateur base, today tennis is a mere vestige of what it once was. I don’t want to see that happen to golf at the grass roots amateur level and that’s what will happen to it if it follows the example of tennis in the last forty years. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2008, 09:09:31 AM »
Who would be your five (5) leading candidates to Captain the Walker Cup had this selection not been made ?

John Blain

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2008, 09:25:14 AM »
Pat,

I think you would have a tough time coming up with three let alone five. You have to figure at some point these guys will get a look:

 1) Tim Jackson. 2-time Mid Am Champ.
 2) Trip Kuehne (he's a lock but too young)
 3) John "Spider" Miller???  He won two Mid Ams but I'm not sure he has the pedigree although he is a member at Seminole.
 4) George Zahringer - No one seems to like him but he would love to do it. The 2013 match is going to be at NGLA where he is a member which can't hurt his chances unless the USGA gives that to Holtgrieve. It seems the most recent captains have the job for two matches.
 
John Harris would have been a lock had he not decided to play the Champions tour, likely David Eger as well.

Someone with a less than zero chance: Danny Green.

-John

David_Tepper

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Re: Jim Holtgrieve named 2011 Walker Cup Captain
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2008, 11:45:39 AM »
TEPaul -

I disagree with your assertion that open tennis is in some way responsible for bursting the tennis boom. In fact, one could argue that, without tennis opening up in the late 1960's, there never would have been a tennis boom in the 1970's.

DT