[PThomas]

i had the chance to play this gem for the first time about a month ago and WOW, it exceeded my lofty expectations

i think it is WAY too low on GW's Top 100 list, and doesn't seem to get mentioned a lot on GCA.......

others agree?  if not, what did you not like about the course?

[David Stamm]

Paul,


    I played it about a month ago as well. And the more I've thought about it, the more I like it. However, I was a little disappointed w/ the Biarritz. The swale was not as dramatic as I had hoped. The 6-16 stretch is really good, with 6, 8, 14 and 15 being highlights for me. Now, I happened to play Engineers the morning before which is ranked right next to The Creek (84 and 85 respectively) in GW if memory serves. I think Engineers is a better course, IMHO, but I think I'd rather play The Creek on a day in day out basis between the 2 the more I think about it. Engineers is very tough while the Creek is a more "enjoyable" course. Whether or not it's ranked too low, I can't say as I haven't played that many ranked courses, but I think it's a fantastic experience and the course itself is solid.

[Patrick Boyd]

Definitely a special place with one of, if not the most, memorable Biarritz complexes I've played.....even if the swale isn't dramatic; an island Biarritz is....

Once you hit the 5th tee box and start to get a little taste what's in front of you, you know you're in for something special.

It's interesting it's so under the radar.....isn't The Creek one of Tom Doak's Gourmet picks in Confidential Guide?

[Wayne Freeman]

Paul,  The Creek Club is indeed a special place.  I think it suffers in the ratings first and foremost because they couldn't care less about ratings or raters,  and probably very few raters have been there.  I think it is ranked a little low and would certainly place it higher than Scioto, Cherry Hills, Colonial, CC of Fairfield, Fenway, and Milwaukee on the GW list.  But again I think it's from relative difficulty of getting on.  With regard to the course itself, after getting by the rather mundane first few holes,  all you can say is WOW!.  By the time you get to the Cape hole and then the Biarritz you are on a wonderful adventure and what a joy the course is from there.  Although Quaker Ridge gets most of the press for that area,  I actually liked the Creek Club and Piping Rock more.

[TEPaul]

"By the time you get to the Cape hole...."


Wayne:

Excuse me, but it seems (from Whigam) that Raynor thought that hole was a Leven, and he seemed to think it was a better version than NGLA's. It seems he liked the direction it faced in better or something. And if the club is able to restore the massive convex sand bunker (perhaps 8-9,000sf) just to the left and before the green, you may be able to see better why he thought it was a Leven version.

I think holes #1, #2, #3 and #5, #7 may need a bit of bunker enhancement ala Macdonald, the "Short" green needs to be increased in size (for better internal "Short" contouring) and maybe a bit more tree work on the course and things should be pretty hunky-dory.   

How would you like to see that incredibly blah Flynn green on #3 traded in for a really cool Macdonald Road hole version something like Piping's but perhaps turned the other way? 

The underlying asset of The Creek I see is its overall location and the three distinct "auras" of the course as you progress around it---eg 1-5=parkland, 6-8= downhill inland links, 9-14=seaside, 15-18=uphill inland links.

Things for consideration but whatever you do try not to take me too seriously! Well, on second thought, maybe you should take me seriously. On the third hand, maybe you should decide for yourself to take me seriously, or not.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Stamm,

What was the wind like when you played the course ?

What was it like when you played # 11, the Island Biarritz ?

Do you think that a more pronounced swale would be unduely punitive given the zero margin of error for missing the green, AND, the enormous influence of winds off the water, on the play of that hole.

I think you have to balance the environment with the features.

I've played that hole with a short iron and two hours later with a long iron and was just hoping to be able to hit the green.

Having a pronounced swale might be an example of architectural overkill.

Your thoughts.

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Interesting take on the course being "WAY to low."

Can you name some specific courses that you see are too high relative to their existing position on the GW poll?

The issue I have with The Creek is that too often people dismiss the first couple of holes and then elevate the course from a number of holes that follow. The issue becomes how much of a drag to those early holes play to the entire assessment because when you start to elevate the course you do run up against competition that has more consistency throughout the round.

Wayne:

Good point on the QR reference.

I've always believed QR has benefited immensely from being down the street from Winged Foot. No doubt there are a number of good holes there but is the course really a top 30-40 course in the USA?

I see The Creek as a fun member's course and its overall positioning relative to other top courses throughout the USA is about right -- no doubt, the rating could be a bit higher or lower by a few positions.

Wayne, what is amazing is that often times "second tied" NYC metro areas get shortchanged because the overall spotlight is so bright on other courses in the same area.

[PThomas]

Matt, to name one course , I prefer The Creek to Bethpage Black

and while the early holes at Creek might not be as good as ones later on, they are by no mean dogs/bad holes/boring holes

[David Stamm]

David Stamm,

What was the wind like when you played the course ?

What was it like when you played # 11, the Island Biarritz ?

Do you think that a more pronounced swale would be unduely punitive given the zero margin of error for missing the green, AND, the enormous influence of winds off the water, on the play of that hole.

I think you have to balance the environment with the features.

I've played that hole with a short iron and two hours later with a long iron and was just hoping to be able to hit the green.

Having a pronounced swale might be an example of architectural overkill.

Your thoughts.

Pat, there was not that much wind when I played. It was in the afternoon during the 3rd week of Sept. Please note that this was my first CBM/SR course, so I was hoping for a more dramatic swale when playing the 11th. Was that fair of me , considering the nature of the green (island)? Perhaps not. I do feel that the green is large enough to pull off a more dramatic Biarritz feature there. I do not dislike the hole, I was just hoping to get a more dramatic effect of the swale. Would that have been overkill? Hmm. I could see how it could be. What I find interesting about the hole is that although it is an island hole, when standing on the tee you don't get a sense of it being that "scary" of a do or die shot. I'm sure in more difficult conditions w/ the wind blowing hard off the water, my opinion would change!

[David Stamm]

I feel that there are some cool features on the first 5 holes. The green on one is just brilliant. The Eden is solid I felt and I love the uphill nature of the 5th. The 17th Short green could probably have used more internal contouring, IMHO.

[Pete Lavallee]

Paul,

For those of us who haven't and probably never will play The Creek, could you tell us what exactly you liked about the course and just exactly why it should be rated higher.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I feel that there are some cool features on the first 5 holes. The green on one is just brilliant. The Eden is solid I felt and I love the uphill nature of the 5th. The 17th Short green could probably have used more internal contouring, IMHO.

David,

I agree on all points.

I love the first hole green, I just wish the hole could be lengthened a little.

As to # 11, the WIND is an integral architectural component.

When the wind is up, hitting that green from the mid to back tees is a challenge.

Hitting near the hole when it's at the periphery of the green becomes an exponentially more difficult challenge.

You also have to remember that that hole/green has probably been under water on more than a few occasions.

If that green was elevated another 5 to 10 feet a deeper swale might have been possible.

I can understand you disappointment with your preconceived notion of a Biarritz, but, the location, Mother Nature and other factors have conspired to produce a muted version.

Playing that hole when the pin is cut near an edge, especially the mid flanking or back edge is an exciting challenge made far more exciting when the wind is up.

It's a great course that's fun to play day in and day out.

[Bill_McBride]

David Stamm,

What was the wind like when you played the course ?

What was it like when you played # 11, the Island Biarritz ?

Do you think that a more pronounced swale would be unduely punitive given the zero margin of error for missing the green, AND, the enormous influence of winds off the water, on the play of that hole.

I think you have to balance the environment with the features.

I've played that hole with a short iron and two hours later with a long iron and was just hoping to be able to hit the green.

Having a pronounced swale might be an example of architectural overkill.

Your thoughts.

Pat, there was not that much wind when I played. It was in the afternoon during the 3rd week of Sept. Please note that this was my first CBM/SR course, so I was hoping for a more dramatic swale when playing the 11th. Was that fair of me , considering the nature of the green (island)? Perhaps not. I do feel that the green is large enough to pull off a more dramatic Biarritz feature there. I do not dislike the hole, I was just hoping to get a more dramatic effect of the swale. Would that have been overkill? Hmm. I could see how it could be. What I find interesting about the hole is that although it is an island hole, when standing on the tee you don't get a sense of it being that "scary" of a do or die shot. I'm sure in more difficult conditions w/ the wind blowing hard off the water, my opinion would change!

David, you need to get yourself to Yale as soon as possible if you want to see a swale!

[tlavin]

Paul,

For those of us who haven't and probably never will play The Creek, could you tell us what exactly you liked about the course and just exactly why it should be rated higher.

Ditto.

[Ari Techner]

When I was at The Creek I was told that the couldn't make the swale on 11 any deeper and it would then be below the water level when it gets high and would fill with water or be altogether too soft for a ball to run through it. 

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

OK.

Just for curiosity -- is the preference for The Creek over BB tied to the former being more user-friendly to your own game?

Paul, the early holes do drag the whole show at The Creek IMHO - I don't see them as being a plus. Nonetheless, it is a fine course and likely one with a bit of exposure would do well.

Both Long Island and Westchester have layout that live in the shadows of the more noted neighbors in the area.

[tlavin]

Paul,

For those of us who haven't and probably never will play The Creek, could you tell us what exactly you liked about the course and just exactly why it should be rated higher.

Ditto.

Bump.

[George_Bahto]

The water table prevents the swale from being any deeper. At one time I heard it was deeper and the grass in the swale often rotted.

[Mike Sweeney]

Paul,

For those of us who haven't and probably never will play The Creek, could you tell us what exactly you liked about the course and just exactly why it should be rated higher.

Ditto.

Bump.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,19684.0.html

[Patrick Boyd]

That is an awesome pic of the 6th, 16th, 17th and 18th green complexes......you can almost make out the punchbowl-esque surrounds of the 6th green.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The Creek has an incredible stretch of holes 6-11, and 13-16.  It has a superweak finish.  The 17th is by far the weakest version of short that I've played (at least 20).  The 18th is a so-so par 4 that plays as a par 5 so that it can have a par of 70.  The start is somewhat mundane, although the first four greens are very severe.
I think Piping Rock isthe better course because the only weak hole is the 2nd.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RMD,

You should know that the 17 green had the original internal contouring removed, making it a bland hole, especially a bland short.

As to # 18, for the better player it's probably not the finishing hole you'd like, but, the cemetary restricts the addition of distance.

I think # 1 is a great opening hole.
Again, physical constraints prevent a needed lengthening.

I'm surprised that you find holes 4 & 5 at PR to be so strong

I don't think you can go wrong playing either course.  They are ideal "member" courses.
They both have their own personalities and are both fun and challenging to play

[PThomas]

Paul,

For those of us who haven't and probably never will play The Creek, could you tell us what exactly you liked about the course and just exactly why it should be rated higher.

Ditto.

Bump.

sorry for the delay in responding, but my youngest girl was in the hospital for a few nites

Matt:  my preference for The Creek is most certainly not based on it playing around my game, because i had a better score at Bethpage...and I played really badly at The Creek

of course the first few holes there are as spectacular as those that follow, but they are by no means weak due in large part  to the tremendous greens

but when you reach the tee on 6 and look our at the bulk of the course - one of the great views in golf - things get even better...the Punchbowl 6th, reverse Redan 8th, the bite off what you want to 10th, the 86 yd long 11th green, the 14th where you can be hitting blind over a marsh for your 2nd even if you are in the fairway, etc

its not just the greens at The Creek either...some great bunkering, use of elevation, native brown colored grasses and scrubby sandy areas, in addition to the vistas, make The Creek a great place for golf

[TEPaul]

"As to # 18, for the better player it's probably not the finishing hole you'd like, but, the cemetary restricts the addition of distance."


Patrick:

Not so fast Kimmosabe. How do you know the cemetary restricts the additon of distance? Have you asked anybody buried in there? Have you asked whomever it is who owns that land? Of course you haven't and therefore you should not be saying things like that.

Am I going to ask The Dead in there or whoever owns that land if The Creek can put a tee back in that cemetary and thereby get the additional yardage to seriously improve that hole? Well, what do you think? You know me don't you and you can count on it.

But that brings up another point about that cemetary back in there but that will be on another post to come shortly! In the meantime I wish you or someone would explain to me how to repost that extraordinary photo and vantage point that appears on post #18 which I must have in my post to relate to what I'm going to say. 

[John Mayhugh]

How can you not love a course that starts out with this?


There are a few great spots to stand and take the course in.  Mike's post from behind the 18th green is one of them.  This photo from the sixth tee shows a bit more of the course from up on high.  The walk from 5 green to 6 tee where the wonderful view unfolds is pretty special.  Not to mention playing down the hill on the sixth was a lot of fun.....


Another spot I really liked was this one from the seventh green.


Pat's correct that the 17th green is a bit bland for a Short but the hole itself is still pretty good.

Several mentioned the cemetery beside 17 green & 18 tee.  This photo was from the cemetery itself looking back toward 17 green. 


You can see from here that it would be pretty disruptive to try to move the tees back much on 18.

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