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Mike Benham

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Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« on: October 31, 2008, 03:21:59 PM »
Pebble Beach loses points in the eyes of pundits with it's soft opening stretch of holes, particularly #1 and #2 ...


So what opening 3-hole stretch of golf is the most challenging in your book?

Is it important to have a mix of holes, a par-3, par-4 and par-5?

Which architect routinely challenges the golfer straight from the first tee box?

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom Huckaby

Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2008, 03:27:42 PM »
Well I've got one for most challenging:  Pasatiempo.

#1 - 457 downhill, call it a par 5, call it a par 4, I make more 6s than 4s either way.  Trees are thinned on each side from what they once were (thankfully) but it still takes a very precise tee shot and approach to get on or close to that green.  Then if you miss it, no chips are easy.  It also slams you hard right away with an example of the Mackenzie greens you will face - lots of contour both obvious and subtle.

#2 - 437 par 4, also downhill, fairway looks massively wide and is, but it cants pretty hard to the left so left rough and bunkers are a more likely spot than it seems.  Turbo-boost rolls on right lure many over there, but trees and worse await a shot too far right.  Still, the hole seems relatively benign and definitely plays shorter than the yardage... but then one gets to the green.  If there was a definition of "killer green" this would be the picture.  NO shots are easy on or around it - severe contour sees to that.

#3 - 235 very uphill with death right, awkward hill short, just requires a perfect wood for most of us.

End result is I can't remember a round where I stood on 4 tee less than +3 - it's usually worse.  And I am not very good for sure, but I am also not alone in this.  Good players also struggle with these holes, or at least I think so....



But most challenging does not necessarily equal BEST.  For best, I think it would be important to have a mix.  But then again three great par 4s would work too.


As for which architect brings it straight from the first tee, hmmm... it's not typically a Mackenzie thing, but he had Pasa #1 as a treeless par five, so he doesn't count.  How about Tillinghast?  Winged Foot West sure smacks you the first three holes....

TH

Jason Topp

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Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2008, 03:30:27 PM »
I've only played two Langford courses, but both featured difficult opening stretches with long holes and greens perched above the fairway.


Deucie Bies

Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2008, 03:32:33 PM »
Oakmont.  The #1, 5 and 3 handicap holes to start off the round.  I am happy to get through those 3 holes +3.  

I don't think it is that important to have a mix of par 3s, 4s and 5s.  IMO, if the goal is to build the best 18 golf holes, the par of the holes should not matter .

Tom Huckaby

Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2008, 03:38:44 PM »
I was thinking Oakmont also, but I have never played it.  Deucie - have you played either Pasatiempo or Winged Foot West?  Curious if Oakmont 1-3 is tougher.  I have little doubt it could be....

TH

Deucie Bies

Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2008, 03:45:26 PM »
Tom,

I have not played Pasatiempo or Winged Foot West so unfortunately I cannot answer your question.  I can tell you that trouble lurks all over the place at Oakmont and the first three holes are no exception!

Tom Huckaby

Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2008, 03:47:19 PM »
Tom,

I have not played Pasatiempo or Winged Foot West so unfortunately I cannot answer your question.  I can tell you that trouble lurks all over the place at Oakmont and the first three holes are no exception!

Gotcha.  Thanks.

How about some in the UK or Ireland?

I recall Muirfield starting out very strong... Prestwick (though in a different way)... Royal Dornoch (another different way, the holes playing harder than one thinks they should).....


Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2008, 03:49:38 PM »
The opening holes at the Legends Moorland course in Myrtle have consistently deflated many in our group over the years; especially holes 2 & 3.  I think the wind has had alot to do with it come to think of it.  Those holes aren't really all that long any more.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 04:24:10 PM by Eric Smith »

Ian Larson

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Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2008, 03:50:17 PM »
Machrihanish
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 03:52:44 PM by Ian Larson »

Paul Nash

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Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2008, 03:56:59 PM »
Royal Porthcawl has a great start - only played once but into the wind and just remember 3 bloody tough par 4s right along the glorious shoreline.

BVince

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Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2008, 04:01:39 PM »
Winged Foot West
Hole 1: 450 par 4
Hole 2: 453 par 4
Hole 3: 243 par 3
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Tom Huckaby

Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2008, 04:03:18 PM »
Winged Foot West
Hole 1: 450 par 4
Hole 2: 453 par 4
Hole 3: 243 par 3

EXACTLY!  And each green is darn tough too.  I'm having a tough time NOT saying this is tougher than Pasa. 


Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2008, 04:14:23 PM »
I'm sure Winged Foot and Oakmont are good answers, but in those cases the entire courses are tough.

Relative to the rest of the course Wannamoisett has a tough and exciting opening stretch.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2008, 04:16:23 PM »
DuPont Country Club

Secession

Lester

Deucie Bies

Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2008, 04:17:09 PM »
What about challenging opening stretches on the back 9?  

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2008, 04:26:15 PM »
Whenever the subject of challenging opening holes comes up, I always think of Crystal Downs. The par-4 1st hole there is a (beautiful) brute... featuring a very slope-y green! The 2nd hole (also a par-4) is challenging as well; but, the par-3 third isn't terribly difficult... so, while Crystal Downs may contend for toughest opening hole, it probably won't win this category!
jeffmingay.com

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2008, 04:32:20 PM »
Long Cove

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2008, 04:34:36 PM »
I'd agree with Pasatiempo immediately.....unfortunately, from an "as intended" standpoint you should kick it out..... or give it an asterik.

#1 was originally a wide open 5, then a tree-lined cupcake for years.
#2 was originally a short 5 with the tee across the street (the current Western Intercollegiate tee or thereabouts).
Oft-discussed #3 is and was one of the toughest 3's you'd ever want to encounter.

I found nothing simple about the opening at Crystal Downs. Long downhill 4, medium uphill 4, mid-length 3; which is the easy part....then you get on the greens...oh the humanity!

Engineer's and Yale have pretty testy opening stretches as well.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Adam Clayman

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Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2008, 04:36:09 PM »
I'm partial to the challenges presented @ Sandy Hills.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom Huckaby

Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2008, 04:40:24 PM »
Jon - we're talking as is.  As intended, hell that's what had me elimnated Mackenzie - see above.

And Adam, good call re Sand Hills - was that "y" was intentional though?  Either way it's a great addition.

 ;D

Just thought of something too... odd that you didn't include it... but man the first three holes at Ballyneal belong in this also - at least in the wind I got most of the time I was there (1 and 2 into, 3 hard across).....  but without that wind they are not that difficult....

I guess the same goes for Sand Hills though - play those in no wind, or downwind 1 and 2, and the collection is not super-difficult.  Play them into or across and heck yeah they are...

Wind determines everything at these places.

At Pasa and Winged Foot (and I assume Oakmont too) no matter what they wind the holes will be bitches.

TH
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 04:46:03 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Adam Clayman

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Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2008, 04:49:29 PM »
Tom. Its just what we call her out here. One of the results of being a participant in "The Believers Cup"
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom Huckaby

Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2008, 04:52:15 PM »
Tom. Its just what we call her out here. One of the results of being a participant in "The Believers Cup"

Very cool.  Any other fun names?  Wild Pony/Stallion?  Ballsyneal?

 ;)

Bill Satterfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2008, 04:56:26 PM »
Sanctuary starts out with the following:
604 yard par 5 (1 handicap)
458 yard par 4 (7 handicap)
432 yard par 4 (3 handicap)

Greg Krueger

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Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2008, 04:59:08 PM »
Two of the toughest starts that I have played would have to be Hazeltine & Wade Hampton.

Hazeltine: #1 460 yd. Par 4 Right off the bat you need to kill a drive and you better be in the fairway. Right pin is really tough, right behind a deep front right bunker.

#2 435 yd. Par 4 Sharp dogleg left with a bunker on the inside of the turn. Second shot is slightly uphill with two deep bunkers front left.

#3 636 yd. Par 5 Might be the toughest par 5 I have played anywhere. The tee shot needs to be played as close to the bunkers on the left to set up the best angle. The second shot might be the most difficult as the fairway slopes severely down & left to right at the ideal landing area. So you can lay up from 140 to 160 or try to hit it all the way to the bottom where you will be closer but will only see the top of the flag on the elevated green.

Wade Hampton #1 540 yd. Par 5 Tee is very elevated hitting to a generous fairway that sits probably 100 ft below you, hit it right and your history, hit it left and you will be blocked by a side of a mountain.

#2 465 yd. Par 4 Creek all the way down the left that is really pretty far left. (You would really have to pull snap one.) Very large undulating green where 3 putts are common.

#3 240 yd. Par 3 Little pond left & short of the green. Better hit it solid.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Challenging Opening 3-hole Stretch of Golf
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2008, 05:06:14 PM »
Wild horsey. Nothing for pl Ballyneal. She's too young and not yet part oh the rota.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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