Doak to design new couse at Black Mesa

[Matt_Ward]

JC:

My guess -- and it's only a guess -- but if you played BM from comparable tees that you mentioned -- your score would be determined by your execution -- the so-called "forced carries" that the wounded egos post here are not in any manner significant. If anything -- the key at BM is your approach play and wherewithal with the flatstick.

Garland:

I'm sure the folks at BM are thrilled with the news !

Golfweek lists a few courses in its assessments that are all wet -- check out the comments from those well-traveled folks who have been around and see what they say. If you have eyes -- you can read their comments here.

[JC Jones]

JC:

My guess -- and it's only a guess -- but if you played BM from comparable tees that you mentioned -- your score would be determined by your execution -- the so-called "forced carries" that the wounded egos post here are not in any manner significant. If anything -- the key at BM is your approach play and wherewithal with the flatstick.

Regardless of the course, my score is always determined by my (lack of) execution.

[Matt_Ward]

JC:

The putter means plenty at BM -- ditto your short game skills.

[Garland Bayley]

...

Golfweek lists a few courses in its assessments that are all wet -- check out the comments from those well-traveled folks who have been around and see what they say. If you have eyes -- you can read their comments here.

In case you haven't noticed, the folks here seem to side with Golfweek assessments, and find Golf Digest assessments to be lacking.
But wait, Bandon Dunes is #33 on Golf Digest's top 100, and Black Mesa doesn't even make the list.

I suppose you will now claim the Golf Digest raters are all wet too.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Absolutely -- be more than happy to point out no less than 20 courses currently in the Digest listing that are there simply because of past mentions and the tradition BS that so many raters fall for.

Bandon gets the full treatment because of what the BRAND has become and the original course is really the 4th best there at the facility and if you care to notice -- please point out for me ONE person who actually thinks the course is better than the others there.

Happy to see such a listing.

Kidd has done better elsewhere -- Bandon gave him his carpet to other opportunities.

[George Pazin]

George:

Did you ever think for a second that everyone who raves about BM just might KNOW what they are talking about and you don't ?

Matt, if this doesn't perfectly encapsulate your outlook on everything on here, nothing does. Have fun arguing with yourself, pards...

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Hey, if you can't hack the fast lane on the highway -- then pull over and enjoy the rest area.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

Absolutely -- be more than happy to point out no less than 20 courses currently in the Digest listing that are there simply because of past mentions and the tradition BS that so many raters fall for.

Bandon gets the full treatment because of what the BRAND has become and the original course is really the 4th best there at the facility and if you care to notice -- please point out for me ONE person who actually thinks the course is better than the others there.

Happy to see such a listing.

Kidd has done better elsewhere -- Bandon gave him his carpet to other opportunities.

Oh Matt, you make it so easy. The vast majority of the Golfweek and the Golf Digest raters think that Bandon Dunes is significantly better than Bandon Trails.

[Garland Bayley]

George:

Hey, if you can't hack the fast lane on the highway -- then pull over and enjoy the rest area.

Matt, You are a sweetheart. That's why we enjoy discussing with you so much!
 

[George Pazin]

George:

Hey, if you can't hack the fast lane on the highway -- then pull over and enjoy the rest area.

Even better! Keep it up, you're showing everyone just who you are.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

You must be thick in the ears -- ask those who post here their preferences at Bandon.

The original course comes in last when held to the other four -- not counting you and I -- see what those say who post here on the merits of BM versus the original 18 at Bandon.

George:

Please -- you can handle it. Just remember I absolutely love Oakmont.

[Jim Haley]

Matt,

I also must take you to task on your Bandon Dunes information, The first course does 3 to 5 thousand rounds more than Pacific Dunes. As an owner, I would translate that to success.

Jim Haley

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

The issue is not rounds played -- Mcd's does sell more hamburgers than plenty of others too.

My point was on architectural merits -- I didn't say Bandon Dunes is a bad course -- just that Black Mesa is a better one. My opinion no doubt.

But, Jim look at the comments that come from this site -- generally the folks here are quite seasoned and travel as core type players. They see the original 18 as the fourth best at the facility. A few have also opined that they see BM as being a finer design than Bandon's original 18.

The Bandon BRAND name is without question a tremendous success. I never said it wasn't. I just don't see all the courses there being at the same level -- I also see other courses in the USA that get far less fanfare because they don't have an ocean or a preferred archie doing the work. Black Mesa falls into that category in my mind.

[Pete Lavallee]

A few have also opined that they see BM as being a finer design than Bandon's original 18.

I challange you to name one!

To say that BM is better than BD is ludicrous. Every major publication that provides rankings dissproves your theory. Golf Week gives BM a 6.90 while BD gets an 8.48; that's a clear smackdown.

BM has many flaws: it's difficult to walk, very difficult to finish a round with the ball you started with, has greens which leave no opportunity to get a well planned putt anywhere near the hole and does NOT become easier by stepping up a tee box. I fall into the same camp as George and Garland, I would not plan a vacation to NM around BM; at least not until the Doak course comes on line. I do want to return to NM, it has many exciting things to offer: but to this golfer BM is not one of them.

[Matt_Ward]

Pete:

Here's one to start things off ...

Matt MacIver
Full Member

Re: Doak to design new couse at Black Mesa
« Reply #97 on: Yesterday at 09:22:26 AM » Quote 

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I think BM is better than BD.

I hope Tom's BM#2 is better than PD - but that's a REALLY tall order.

Santa Fe is great and is a better couples destination than Bandon (and way cheaper than Pebble). The new BM complex will appeal to a group of golfers - but IMVHO it won't take huge share from those named above, or WS, unless the do something radically different or unique. Maybe (hopefully!) two quality course at a fair price near a great tourist city with year-round great (true?) course conditions will be enough.
 

[Pete Lavallee]

Fair enough, now name a second!

[Matt_Ward]

Pete:

I'll start with me -- but likely if the others who have played both would like to answer that directly then they can weigh in.

Pete, try to keep this in mind -- many of the ratings are herd mentalities. The Bandon BRAND name provides a major plus for the original course. See what the core group here prefers and likely you will see the original 18 coming up dead last.

Kidd has done some really solid work elsewhere -- the Bandon original 18 was the springboard for him.

Pete, beg to differ -- BM has plenty of alternate routes. I don't know how many times you played the course or what the weather conditions were when you played. I have sampled a fair number of people who play the course frequently and to a person they respect what it gives and understand what type of execution is needed.

Plenty of other courses here on GCA -- get plenty more love and are far more penal than BM is. Is the place a tough walk? Sure. But it's easier than Bethpage Black and quite a few others I can mention.

In regards to flaws just remember that the original 18 at bandon has a weak finisher -- really it's quite lame.

[Sean Leary]

Matt

Is 18 at BD really any worse than 12 at Pacific?

[Garland Bayley]

...
Pete, try to keep this in mind -- many of the ratings are herd mentalities. The Bandon BRAND name provides a major plus for the original course. See what the core group here prefers and likely you will see the original 18 coming up dead last.
...

Bandon Dunes started its life rated higher than Black Mesa. You know, way back before it was a "BRAND".

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Good point -- I think the finisher at Bandon's original 18 is really one of the worst holes at the facility -- could be the worst.

I also agree about the 12th at Pac -- more of a filler hole to get you to the superb site at the 13th hole.

The reality is that ocean-located courses get a number of brownie points.

[Steve Lang]

  I view Bandon as one of the necessary modern day public golf pilgramages..  kinda like the Old Course, you've got to do it at least once.. and frankly, I think it might even be cheaper for a return to TOC, than to do Bandon!  

.. and having met Mike Keiser at BD, I guess I'll have to seek out Melvyn when i return to TOC!

can i note that Bandon Trails is a comparable walk with Blask Mesa?

BM may not be a pilgramage, but its certainly an excellent destination.

.. hey, was it the new casino(s) that got in the way of financing the golf course?

Hopefully financing will be cleared up in the future and old plans will be renewed.  I'm not going to hold my breath, but the absence of a second course is not going to keep me from going back to BM.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Quick question -- does a 2nd course of equal or even possibly greater stature than BM really elevate the facility to the "modern day golf pilgrimages" you mentioned ?

In regards to the financing dimension -- the ultimate goal is not just a 2nd course but to have casitas available for usage by those visiting.

[Garland Bayley]

...
can i note that Bandon Trails is a comparable walk with Blask Mesa?
...

Did you walk Black Mesa?

[Pete Lavallee]

Matt,

I realize you love BM and I won't try and change your opinion about that; it would be impossible. I can also see why you really love the place; it's a thrill ride, with tremendous risk being offset by an equally tremendous reward. My personal opinion is that it is an exciting place to play, but it is not a great course. I have never been dissapointed by a recomendation for any course from a fellow GCA'er, but BM is the exception. We all know you tout the place like you were actually on the payroll; but it's Ran's endorsement that has me puzzeled? I find it hard to believe that he would feature this course on GCA but not Stone Eagle. Both mountain layouts are top notch, but SE eliminates all the concerns I have abpout BM, except for the walk.

After only one play I will admit that I may have missed the greatness there. I played it on a cross country trip where my wife and we played Taconic, French Lick (Ross), Wild Horse, Ballyneal, BM and We Ko Pa Saguaro. We had a beatuiful 70* day at BM with little wind; so weather conditionds didn't taint my view. It was at the bottom of my ranking for those courses; and I absolutely loved each of the others. I have 32 cousins and my favorite one lives in Santa Fe, so I was stoked to be able to play a top 100 course in her backyard. When her husband said he'd like to join us for golf he said he'd rather go to work than play BM with us! I think part of golf course greatness is that it must be playable for all classes of golfers and not just those who take lessons; this is where BM misses the mark for me. It definetly has a place in the Big World of golf couses, but not in my Top 100. With a more compassionate sister course I'm sure it will make a fine destination Resort.

[George Pazin]

Did you walk Black Mesa?

I walked BM with JVB, Jon Cummings and Doug Wright. I don't recall any of us thinking it was a brutal walk, but I could be wrong in my recollection of others' opinions. It is a challenging walk, but I've had tougher walks. PKR was tougher, to me anyway.

-----

Matt -

I've had a night to calm down, so I'll simply say we are quibbling over minor things about BM. I think it's a very good course, just not particularly well suited to golfers like me. And I fully recognize that is a personal opinion, not a universal one, and I could be wrong in my opinion (though I don't think so). Whether I'd recommend it to someone would likely depend on what their game was like and what else they've seen. I won't be going back anytime soon, but that's more a reflection of my future desires & limited budget than an implied ranking of the course. If I'm getting on a plane, I'm going to: 1) Texas 2) Colorado 3) Tasmania 4) Scotland or 5) Bandon (hopefully in that order).

I still think you are mischaracterizing the 25+ high handicappers of the world. There's plenty that can hit the ball just fine, they simply don't play enough to be able to score well. Routine grounders are more the indicator of a beginning golfer, not someone who shoots around 100. A guy who misses a bunch of GIRs and doesn't have a particularly sharp short game will end up shooting around 100. If you hit a bunch of grounders and majorly foul balls, you're probably shooting north of 120.