Doak to design new couse at Black Mesa

[Matt_Ward]

One thing is clear -- Santa Fe offers the full panorama of being in the high desert -- great food offerings and a history that's second to none.

Great excuse to bring the wives and leave them at the spas when playing at BM !

[Steve Lang]

  Better yet to bring the spouse and enjoy some match Play!

[Garland Bayley]

We Pacific Northwesters are dearly looking forward to the time when all your golf trips are diverted to Black Mesa. Long rule Black Mesa!

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
Don't get too far ahead of yourself. I have my first trip to Bandon scheduled in early 2011!

[Tom_Doak]

Interesting to see this thread pop up.  I just saw Eddie and Pat at the Renaissance Cup, and we didn't even talk about the possibility of getting the second course started.  But, Pat did tell me that the change I made to the routing sure looked good when the last big rain came down through the site.

I hope it doesn't wind up like the Ohio State courses where it finally gets built after I'm gone, and all of my former associates fight over who should be the one to build it.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill: I agree with you but one course is hard to attract golfers on a golf getaway.  Bandon or Kohler are great but expensive so they are looking at the RTJ Trail or Myrtle Beach.  I have no doubt that BM offers better golf than RTJ or MB but it needs a second course so guys will stay for a few days and add to the local economy. 

That's what the thesis was:  build the second (Doak) course and Black Mesa will be highly competitive.

And Santa Fe is a much better non-golf town than either Bandon or Myrtle Beach    or anywhere in Alabama!

I've got news for you people. Black Mesa is not in Santa Fe!

Dear Snarkmeister,

Have you been there?

I guess you could say it's in Espanola.  It's 23 miles from central Santa Fe.

That's like saying Rustic Canyon isn't in Los Angeles, or one you'll understand, Wine Valley isn't in Walla Walla.

The comparison has been Bandon to Black Mesa. Where are you going to stay at Black Mesa and where are you going to do a relaxing round at the par 3 course at Black Mesa? Are you going to drive into Sante Fe for dinner and then back to the course to use the practice area? Are you going to simply spend your time at the resort without renting a car?

Black Mesa well never be a Bandon.
Bill, I think even you will agree with that unless you have been sipping some serious Kool-aid from Matt.

In May 2008n my wife and I and three other couples went to Santa Fe for a week.  We stayed in two nice 2 BR condos a block off the plaza.  We played 4 rounds of golf and drove up to Chimaya and Taos for one day of sightseeing.  we played Black Mesa twice, Pa-ako Ridge once and Cochiti once.  We frove the 20 miles out to BM in the morning, very relaxed, played the right tees and had a ball.  You have to honor the Rule of St Clint to enjoy Black Mesa:  "A man has to know his limitations."  There are few if any forced carries at BM if you play the right tees and play within yourself.  I shot a 79 the first round at BM with 3 birdies.  I am a short hitting 12 handicap who's worked his way up to 14.

Our 8 had a great time, great food every night.  Lots to see in Santa Fe.  I love Bandon but it's guys' golf only.

In some ways Black Mesa is indeed no Bandon, it's better in a parallel universe.  Imagine what I described above with a second course by Tom Doak.  Did I mention the average green fee for our trip was under $50?

[Jim Franklin]

Bill -

I agree, Black Mesa will never be Bandon, but so what. New Mexico was nice, driving was fine, lots to do, good places to eat, and you can bring your non-playing spouse and have a blast. I can 't wait to get back. The best thing is their is a direct flight from Baltimore to Albuquerque.

[Thomas Patterson]

My wife and I did a very similar thing with another couple and had a BLAST.  Rented a house a few blocks off the plaza through vrbo and played BM and Paa-Ko (short weekend trip driving down from Denver).  Great food, great art, good atmosphere, and the golf was fantastic.  In hindsight, we would have gone back to BM the second day, but Paa-Ko was neat to see once (we did play the original 18, and had the course to ourselves... amateur golf channel event that afternoon and we went out super early).

The drive from Santa Fe to Black Mesa was very nice, as mentioned before.  Tons of interesting land out there.  Anyone know how many acres of land BM owners have?  I think this area could become a great destination b/c it does have the activities for non playing spouses/friends.

Tom - If you don't mind sharing... from your routing and initial planning/site visits, what were you most excited about for this course?

[Bill_McBride]

My wife and I did a very similar thing with another couple and had a BLAST.  Rented a house a few blocks off the plaza through vrbo and played BM and Paa-Ko (short weekend trip driving down from Denver).  Great food, great art, good atmosphere, and the golf was fantastic.  In hindsight, we would have gone back to BM the second day, but Paa-Ko was neat to see once (we did play the original 18, and had the course to ourselves... amateur golf channel event that afternoon and we went out super early).

The drive from Santa Fe to Black Mesa was very nice, as mentioned before.  Tons of interesting land out there.  Anyone know how many acres of land BM owners have?  I think this area could become a great destination b/c it does have the activities for non playing spouses/friends.

Tom - If you don't mind sharing... from your routing and initial planning/site visits, what were you most excited about for this course?

Thomas, after our week in Santa Fe, we drove up to Durango to spend two nights with old friends, flew out of Durango airport.  If you drove down from Denver that way, it's a beautiful trip between Durango and Santa Fe.

[Thomas Patterson]

Bill - I never even thought about going back that way, but again, it was a short weekend trip.  I've seen that drive once, when I was 14 and headed to Durango for my first ski trip!  It is beautiful country indeed.  SW corner of CO is just amazing

[Criss Titschinger]

Interesting to see this thread pop up. 

I brought it up because I'm visiting NM in a few weeks. My wife has a conference in Albuquerque. Always wanted to play Black Mesa, so this was a perfect excuse to get me there. I remembered talk about the 2nd course, but Google searches didn't give any updates. I appreciate all the insight that's been posted since I bumped it. Haven't played golf outside the OH-KY-IN Tri-State in 3.5 years, so I'm definitely excited for the trip.

I'll likely play Paa-Ko Ridge my 2nd day. Don't think I have enough time to get a quick round on UNM before our flight home, but I'm going to try.

[Bill_McBride]

Interesting to see this thread pop up. 

I brought it up because I'm visiting NM in a few weeks. My wife has a conference in Albuquerque. Always wanted to play Black Mesa, so this was a perfect excuse to get me there. I remembered talk about the 2nd course, but Google searches didn't give any updates. I appreciate all the insight that's been posted since I bumped it. Haven't played golf outside the OH-KY-IN Tri-State in 3.5 years, so I'm definitely excited for the trip.

I'll likely play Paa-Ko Ridge my 2nd day. Don't think I have enough time to get a quick round on UNM before our flight home, but I'm going to try.

Criss,it's a beautiful drive up to Santa Fe and Black Mesa from Albuquerque.  Enjoy!  Look forward to your comments on both the courses.  Try to play the original nines at Paa-ko, I don't know anyone who thinks the third nine is up to that level.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

Before people make long term predictions that BM will NEVER be a Bandon -- the reality is that Bandon offers far less than what the totality of the immediate Santa Fe area provides. Bandon, is what Bill said, a stag event for core guy players. No women, short of those who are golf addicts will survive more than 1-2 days there -- TOPS !

Black Mesa is better than the original BandonDunes layout and if/when a second course comes into beginning the cache of the place changes dramatically. Ditto for when houses / casitas and the likes are included.

Bandon gained dramatically when Pac Dunes opened -- the same will happen w Black Mesa if / when the 2nd 18 gets started.

Criss:

Don't go too late to Paa-Ko. Course is in much higher elevation and can pose an issue because of that. If you want something a bit closer to Albuquerque -- then try Sandia. It's a decent Scott Miller design and provides e-z access to/from Albuquerque via I-25.

One other thing -- if you want a relaxing ride minus the Interstate-- try the Turquoise Trail -- it backtracks behind the Sandia Mountains feeds you into the outer area of Santa Fe from Albuquerque.

[Matthew Petersen]

I think BM is better than BD.

I hope Tom's BM#2 is better than PD - but that's a REALLY tall order.

Santa Fe is great and is a better couples destination than Bandon (and way cheaper than Pebble). The new BM complex will appeal to a group of golfers - but IMVHO it won't take huge share from those named above, or WS, unless the do something radically different or unique. Maybe (hopefully!) two quality course at a fair price near a great tourist city with year-round great (true?) course conditions will be enough.

PS - I bet most retail golfers, and raters, like Paa-Ko better than BM. 

Santa Fe is definitely not a year-round golf destination. At over 7,000 ft of elevation it is very much a mountain town and spends much of the winter under snow. Some of the most terrifying blizzards I've ever seen have been in that area. Beautiful in the summer, though.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Black Mesa is better than the original BandonDunes layout and if/when a second course comes into beginning the cache of the place changes dramatically. Ditto for when houses / casitas and the likes are included.
...

For any of you out there that are actually drinking some of Matt's Kool-aid, I would like to point out that Golfweek has the Bandon Dunes course at #5, whereas it has the Black Mesa course at #94.

While Bandon Dunes is firmly entrenched at the top of the ratings, Black Mesa struggles to keep in the top 100 having been out in 2008, in in 2007, and out in 2006.

[Jay Flemma]

It's not Matt's Kool-Aid, it's everybody's Kool-Aid.  Garland, you are obsessed.  You overdo it every time there is a Black Besa thread.  Not only can't you let a single thread on Black Mesa go by without being a hater, you can't let even a few posts go by without incessantly beating the same dead horse:  that you can't walk Black Mesa while others can.  We get it.  You don't get Black Mesa.  But lots of people do, so get over it and stop ruining everyone else's good time by bringing us down with your crusade against the course.  There is great architecture there everywhere you look and it's at a great price.  It's a bold routing.  The  greens have great internal contours.  The terrain is fantastic for golf and used in a particularly clever way.  And it's nowhere near as difficult a walk as you make it out. Plenty of people walk it.  I'm not saying you can't say you don't like Black Mesa, but you just never stop and attack it at every opportunity.

[Garland Bayley]

It's not Matt's Kool-Aid, it's everybody's Kool-Aid.  Garland, you are obsessed.  You overdo it every time there is a Black Besa thread.  Not only can't you let a single thread on Black Mesa go by without being a hater, you can't let even a few posts go by without incessantly beating the same dead horse:  that you can't walk Black Mesa while others can.  We get it.  You don't get Black Mesa.  But lots of people do, so get over it and stop ruining everyone else's good time by bringing us down with your crusade against the course.

Dang Jay,

Your going to have to take up that Black Mesa hating garbage to Dr. Klein at Golfweek. They are the ones that keep publishing ratings showing Bandon Dunes miles ahead of Black Mesa. So how is Matt's nonsense about Black Mesa being much better than Bandon Dunes "everybody's Kool-Aid"?

To bad you can't discern Matt's hype when you see it.

And, you are clueless about what I can walk and can't walk. The interesting thing is the number of people who post that Black Mesa is walkable, but when asked admit they didn't walk it.

[Andy Troeger]

...
Black Mesa is better than the original BandonDunes layout and if/when a second course comes into beginning the cache of the place changes dramatically. Ditto for when houses / casitas and the likes are included.
...

For any of you out there that are actually drinking some of Matt's Kool-aid, I would like to point out that Golfweek has the Bandon Dunes course at #5, whereas it has the Black Mesa course at #94.

While Bandon Dunes is firmly entrenched at the top of the ratings, Black Mesa struggles to keep in the top 100 having been out in 2008, in in 2007, and out in 2006.

Garland--do you make this stuff up? Black Mesa is currently #77, and was #73 in 2008. It fell to #94 in 2009. I don't agree with your viewpoint anyway, but if you're going to use statistics you might want to do better than guess.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Black Mesa is better than the original BandonDunes layout and if/when a second course comes into beginning the cache of the place changes dramatically. Ditto for when houses / casitas and the likes are included.
...

For any of you out there that are actually drinking some of Matt's Kool-aid, I would like to point out that Golfweek has the Bandon Dunes course at #5, whereas it has the Black Mesa course at #94.

While Bandon Dunes is firmly entrenched at the top of the ratings, Black Mesa struggles to keep in the top 100 having been out in 2008, in in 2007, and out in 2006.

Garland--do you make this stuff up? Black Mesa is currently #77, and was #73 in 2008. It fell to #94 in 2009. I don't agree with your viewpoint anyway, but if you're going to use statistics you might want to do better than guess.

Thanks for the correction Andy. I was looking at 2009 instead of 2010 for the current ranking. I was dependent on memory for the rest. Last time I looked it up for the other years was to cite the actual positions when Matt was abusing The Links of ND. I guess my recollection of those two swapping higher/lower positions every year had me thinking Black Mesa fell off the rankings every year. Sorry for the mistake.

However, the point is Golfweek concurs that Bandon Dunes is noticeably better than Black Mesa.

[George Pazin]

George:

That is so funny.

You genuflect on Oakmont which is as penal as can be -- more so than Black Mesa. Oakmont doesn't provide any relief -- extracts the slightest of miscues and beats up on the very "golfers" you champion.

George, let me break the news to you -- if someone is playing to a 25+ handicap and then bitches and moans about tee boxes that they HAVE NO STANDING on playing then I don't feel a freakin thing. How bout either practice more or move up a few tee boxes?

Love your style, Matt - I mention you don't pay attention to high handicappers actual games, you counter with my love for Oakmont. That makes sense.

You seem to feel anyone who complains about BM is incapable of getting the ball airborne or hitting a fairway the width of the Atlantic.

The thing is...

EVERYONE on here - except you, apparently - knows it's not only possible to shoot the 98s, 100s and 102s necessary to be a 25 hitting the ball in the air, it's likely and even probable. This is especially true on a course fraught with opportunities for penalties and drops.  People who hit grounders consistently are not high handicappers, they are BEGINNERS.

EVERYONE on here - except you, apparently - knows how easy it is to shoot a 100 by having a bunch of bogeys and doubles and a few pars and others, none of which require hitting grounders or missing (non-existent) 100 yard wide fairways. Again, this is even more true on today's modern courses which emphasize the penalty drop over the challenging recovery shots we find on the old classics.

The people that you constantly deride and admonish to get to the practice tee or play the right tees are simply the casual golfers that I've seen you clamor so desperately for on other "grow the game" threads, people that only play or practice a few times a year, but would play more if they could. If you don't want them around, fine, make all courses as penal as possible (well, not all of them, try to leave at least a couple for me to enjoy). And by all means, recommend they travel vast distances to courses that are ill-suited for casual golfers.

[George Pazin]

I'm not saying you can't say you don't like Black Mesa, but you just never stop and attack it at every opportunity.

That's one way of looking at it. The other is that any time anyone does not tow the party line with BM - and towing the line means absolutely no criticism whatsoever, zip, zero, nada - a handful of posters scream and yell and harangue them on these silly threads.

I've said repeatedly that BM is an excellent course for better golfers, but not a course I'd recommend for the casual high handicapper who sprays the ball, and for that I've received... well, not a lot of pleasant spirited debate.

Reminds me of the beating another poster receives any time he levels the least bit of criticism at another CA favorite...

[JC Jones]

I hit my PW 135-140 and my driver 280+ and rarely break 90.

[Matt_Ward]

JC:

What tees do you normally play ?

George:

Did you ever think for a second that everyone who raves about BM just might KNOW what they are talking about and you don't ?

The overall playability of Black Mesa is present -- even if you insist on wearing your self-imposed blindfold. The high handicappers you embrace will be thoroughly beaten up when playing the Pennsy brute and as a number of posters who have played BM can attest -- play the right tees and the Espanola course is more than fair. The idea of "forced" carries is rubbish -- you have more of such things at other courses that are routinely feasted on this site.

Black Mesa has ample playability -- there are far more penal courses and far more non-user-friendly courses located in the broader southwest area. I have heard all the generalized bs comments -- but rarely, if ever, do I read the specifics of certain holes where the deficiencies are said to exist. Please feel free to provide specifics -- otherwise drop the predicatable and tiresome show of bitch, whine and complain about what I say.

George, if someone is a 25+ then how bout taking lessons? Geeze, what a novel thought that might be. Black Mesa is amply wide in almost all instances -- there are avenues for people to play around hazards and if suich persons execute the slighest modicum of thinking they can score. I've seen such "casual golf" folks play there and I've taken the time to talk to them and get their comments. They rave about the course and the playability dimension.

Garland:

Bandon gets a huge spike because of the effect of the "other" courses there. The original course is not anywhere as good as the others. Kidd, himself, has done better elsewhere. Conduct a poll and ask people if forced to choose between playing Black Mesa and the original 18 at Bandon what course they would play? Some have already answered that here. If there's any kool-aid my friend it's the gallon you have been sipping from for quite some time. Jay F is spot on -- leave the anger aside -- you're all wet on BM.

[JC Jones]

JC:

What tees do you normally play ?

George:

Did you ever think for a second that everyone who raves about BM just might KNOW what they are talking about and you don't ?

The overall playability of Black Mesa is present -- even if you insist on wearing your self-imposed blindfold. The high handicappers you embrace will be thoroughly beaten up when playing the Pennsy brute and as a number of posters who have played BM can attest -- play the right tees and the Espanola course is more than fair. The idea of "forced" carries is rubbish -- you have more of such things at other courses that are routinely feasted on this site.

Black Mesa has ample playability -- there are far more penal courses and far more non-user-friendly courses located in the broader southwest area. I have heard all the generalized bs comments -- but rarely, if ever, do I read the specifics of certain holes where the deficiencies are said to exist. Please feel free to provide specifics -- otherwise drop the predicatable and tiresome show of bitch, whine and complain about what I say.

George, if someone is a 25+ then how bout taking lessons? Geeze, what a novel thought that might be. Black Mesa is amply wide in almost all instances -- there are avenues for people to play around hazards and if suich persons execute the slighest modicum of thinking they can score. I've seen such "casual golf" folks play there and I've taken the time to talk to them and get their comments. They rave about the course and the playability dimension.

Garland:

Bandon gets a huge spike because of the effect of the "other" courses there. The original course is not anywhere as good as the others. Kidd, himself, has done better elsewhere. Conduct a poll and ask people if forced to choose between playing Black Mesa and the original 18 at Bandon what course they would play? Some have already answered that here. If there's any kool-aid my friend it's the gallon you have been sipping from for quite some time. Jay F is spot on -- leave the anger aside -- you're all wet on BM.

Matt,

Whichever tees my host prefers. 

Otherwise, 6200-6600 depending on what the the middle tees are.  I don't hit my 7-iron any more consistent nor straighter than my driver so my score doesn't improve/worsen based on the yardage played.

[Garland Bayley]

Matt,

I have already told you I won't go back to Black Mesa. Did you not understand that?

"Conduct a poll and ask people if forced to choose between playing Black Mesa and the original 18 at Bandon what course they would play?"

I don't think I need to conduct another poll. The Golfweek raters have answered that question pretty definitively in their poll. Or, are they all-wet too?