[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

Without defending what Tilly wrote, his is a case where the words are not the sum of the man. He was simply a product of his time and expressed thoughts and used vernacular that was commonly used by all in his day as well as by other writers.

Tilly was not prejudiced; in fact, in another anecdote that you failed to read in my Tilly bio which I may one day be simply be forced to send you a copy of to alleviate your ignorance  , Tilly fired a white foreman on one of his work crews and replaced him with a black man. He even went so far as to have this black gentleman named Lon and his wife Mary, move into the apartment he kept in the carriage house on his property so that he could spend the winter teaching him everything he would need to know to manage the project.

That winter the KKK regularly burned crosses on his property in harrington patk in protest. Tilly stood up to them and Lon worked for him until Tilly closed up shop & went on the PGA Tour...

This was related to me by Tilly's granddaughter, Barabara, who lived in the hosue dirctly behind Tilly's and next to the carriage house. She saw and witnessed these burning crosses from the 2nd floor hallway window of her house and the men who set them ablaze. She also spent time with Lon & Mary, whom she remembers with great fondness to this very day...

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

That's a wonderful and inspirational story.   

In that light, I just went to the following site and have ordered my long-overdue copy of your Tillinghast book.   

http://shop.classicsofgolf.com/servlet/-strse-NEW!-Future-Classics/Categories

I'll definitely be looking forward excitedly to its arrival.

I'll also be looking to a future Volume II, where the writings of "Far and Sure" are prominently portrayed. 

[TEPaul]

"Without defending what Tilly wrote, his is a case where the words are not the sum of the man. He was simply a product of his time and expressed thoughts and used vernacular that was commonly used by all in his day as well as by other writers."

Phil Young:

Is that right? What do you expect---eg that we should take your word for that because you call yourself one of Tillinghast's biographers??

Maybe you do but you can bet I'm not! I'm sick of your panegryics with Tillinghast, particularly when you try to pass off whatever he said were the common thoughts and were commonly used by ALL in his day.

That is remarkable bullshit and you can count on the fact I'm going to take you to task on here if you keep up with it. We can read, Phil Young, (have you seen what we just found that he wrote in American Crickter?), and we sure don't need you to tell us how to translate or understand it. I probably understand that world back then when he wrote in Philadephia better than you do and I probably know more about the realities of the people around here back then better than you do too.

I think a pretty important subject has been generated by that statement of yours---eg essentially the subject of panegyrics. Are you ready for it or are you going to say you're too busy or are you going to say--AGAIN---we should just agree to disagree and you don't want to participate any more??

Think about it---sleep on it---do whatever it takes, Phil Young, because that last post and some of the statements in it sure don't fly with me.

Tomorrow!

[BCrosby]

Phil wrote -

"Tilly fired a white foreman on one of his work crews and replaced him with a black man. He even went so far as to have this black gentleman named Lon and his wife Mary, move into the apartment he kept in the carriage house on his property so that he could spend the winter teaching him everything he would need to know to manage the project.

That winter the KKK regularly burned crosses on his property in harrington patk in protest. Tilly stood up to them and Lon worked for him until Tilly closed up shop & went on the PGA Tour...

This was related to me by Tilly's granddaughter, Barabara, who lived in the hosue dirctly behind Tilly's and next to the carriage house. She saw and witnessed these burning crosses from the 2nd floor hallway window of her house and the men who set them ablaze. She also spent time with Lon & Mary, whom she remembers with great fondness to this very day... "

Phil -

One of the least appreciated things about Bob Jones is the extent of the racism all around him. Most of the presidents of East Lake, the Georgia governor, senators and representative in the 1920's were affiliated with the KKK one way or another. I've got lots of stories. Tom Watson, a senator, wrote truly vile editorials over a long period of time. It  was an era when lynchings were so common place that they didn't even make the front page.

There is no evidence that Jones shared such views. But the Golden Age was not so golden in many, many ways.

Bob

[Tom Naccarato]

i can't bare to read all of the stuff being written here, simply because the posts take on a "Energizer Bunny" quality to them, but I do know this: In journalism, whenever there is a column written by more then one or two contributors, in an insider-like format, the use of a clever pseudonym is most always used.

I could give examples, but it would only lead to more speculation, and thats the last thing this website needs is more speculation.

Bob, Yes, I agree that the 1920's did have a certain air to it. For instance, there are covers of Pacific Golf & Motor magazine that are anything but politically correct; most shameful to think that they once existed, but thankfully things have changed.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Attitudes and opinions towards some certainly could get bad back then---eg what we call "Politically Incorrect" today. Part of the problem obviously was back then there wasn't exactly a counter mentality that we know of today as an aversion against that kind of thing ("Politically CORRECT")! At least there was nowhere near the extent or degree back then that we know of as "Political Incorrectness" today.

The thing I really object to that Philip Young said in a post above is that everybody (he said 'all') subscribed to that kind of mentality and opinion and racial and cultural slurring phraseology back then!!

First of all there's no way at all that he knows that or could know that and the reason obviously is it just isn't true. My thought is that a statement like that is just another example of the psychological ploy of "transference"----eg if one wants to downplay or minimize something that was not admirable about himself or somebody else one way to do it is to claim that everyone did the same thing or thought and said the same thing.

That time sure could be what we today call "Politically Incorrect" but to make a claim that everyone was that way back then it just total bullshit!

That's all I was calling him on.

Furthermore, I doubt Philip Young has ever read what Tillinghast wrote in American Cricketer in that racially or culturally denigrating vein that we ran across the other day. As far as I know nobody has read that stuff in close to a century. I'm the one who read it and I told Joe Bausch to photograph it but I do not believe he put it on this website, or if he did, I missed it.

[Tom Naccarato]

So is it just a question of semantics?

[TEPaul]

TommyN:

What is just a question of semantics?

[Tom Naccarato]

That maybe we are all not understanding, reading everybody's words and opinions correctly, which leads to the discussions gone awry? Just a thought. After all, we all can't be Bob Crobsy!

Meanwhile, I gotta go to work!

[Rich Goodale]

I thnk that all pseudepigraphy should be cryit doon!

J-P

[TEPaul]

“That maybe we are all not understanding, reading everybody's words and opinions correctly, which leads to the discussions gone awry?”

TommyN:

Here’s what Philip Young said:

“"Without defending what Tilly wrote, his is a case where the words are not the sum of the man. He was simply a product of his time and expressed thoughts and used vernacular that was commonly used by all in his day as well as by other writers."

I believe he said that some of the racially and culturally slurring remarks Tillinghast wrote in American Cricketer and other periodicals expressed thoughts and used vernacular that was commonly used by ALL in his day.

How do you read that differently than I do?

The only thing I can say in Phil’s defense is that he may not have ever read what I’m referring to about what Tillinghast wrote in American Cricketer. However, I’m quite sure Phil has read that article in which Tillinghast went into a description of what he referred to as “Nigger Golf”.

What I’m saying is that if Phil thinks everyone in Tillinghast’s day used that kind of vernacular that conveyed racial prejudice I think he is completely incorrect, and I think that needed to be pointed out.

[Mike_Cirba]

I could give examples, but it would only lead to more speculation, and thats the last thing this website needs is more speculation.

Tommy,

I would argue that "speculation" is the gasoline that fuels the GCA Discussion engine, and I'd argue that it's also the rocket engine that fuels our collective understanding of architectural historical discovery.   

From "Who should/will be the architect of the 5th course at Bandon?" to "Was the writer known as "Far and Sure" actually AW Tillinghast?", to "Is this little course on an island in northern Scotland a Mackenzie?", the only way we advance our collective and individual knowledge of all things related to architecture and architectural history is simply asking questions and trying to reasonably speculate as to what the answers might be.   

In a way, we also have de-facto, built in,  peer review here, so when people speculate and float theories or ideas, or whatever, some rise to a level of acceptance and increase understanding and others get set afire and their ashes scatter to the winds.

Not too bad, not too messy....most of the time. 

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