[Bob_Huntley]

The Economic Experience thread has gone on for 18 pages and over 6000 views and has given us an extensive view of capitalism and socialism at work. some of the writers have been adept at placing their particular philosophy in front of us.

I would like to know just how many of you are immigrants?

I came to America in 1963 and my home country, the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland , allowed me but $7500.00 to start life in a new country, this with a wife and two young children. I had much more in the bank but that was all I could take out. The objective of allowing so little capital to exit was to stop a white exodus from the African continent.

I was fortunate that in 1960, I visited Zanzibar and at the main hotel there I met an American concert pianist. When I applied for a vias in early 1963 I mentioned this person as the only American I knew. I flew from Durban, South Africa to London on my first jet ride. Wanting to arrive in America the old fashioned way I took the Queen Mary from Southhampton and sailed into New York past the Statue of Liberty and docked in Manhattan. I was thrilled to be in a country where I knew that this was the land of begin again.

Before I left Africa I bought a Grey Hound bus ticket for 99 dollars to get me from New York to San Francisco. I had no idea what I was getting into. Fortunately, I played squash racquets with a fellow passenger on the ship who invited me to help him drive his car across country. I arrived in Los Angeles at the right time.


I must say that I am at one with Shivas and Pat Mucci, one can speak of disparity in incomes and minimum wages etc., but anyone that cannot make it in America cannot have tried very hard.

How many of you would travel with a  family and start a new life several thousand miles away with not much money and think you were doing the right thing. Believe me, many millions of non-Americans do.

There is much wrong in the USA , but there is much more that is right.

Bob

[Mike Benham]

Much to the dismay of many on this board, I doubt there will be 18 pages of debate, retort and rebuttal to Bob's comments.

[Jed Peters]

How many of you would travel with a  family and start a new life several thousand miles away with not much money and think you were doing the right thing. Believe me, many millions of non-Americans do.

There is much wrong in the USA , but there is much more that is right.

Bob

Bob,

Truer words have rarely been spoken on this website. Amen.

My grandfather, an immigrant italian who grew up in the oakland ghetto, with nary more than an elementary education, taught me these same values.

My father-in-law, a czech man who swam from communism in 1969 (literally) and immigrated here, still believes that this is the greatest country in the world--with the greatest opportunity for those who seek it.

Both came to this country with far less pedigree and FAR less that $7500 (or it's equivilent) but nevertheless have prospered economically for the reasons you mention. Some may think it's corny, but God Bless the USA.

[Tony_Muldoon]

My parents emigrated from Ireland to England in 1963 I was 5 years old and the eldest of 4 children.  My Father was a Doctor and went into general practice near London. I believe they came because they saw a better life for their family.  Had they not moved my schooling years would have been in Belfast during the troubles.

I don’t know why, but I’ve always wanted to ‘work for myself’, and have been in a business partnership for the past 25 years.  I suspect I haven’t done as well as you Bob , but I’m not complaining.  London has been tough but good to me and my family.

Ireland is much changed in the past 45 years, particularly the last 20.  Wanting see the world has meant sometimes I haven’t been back for half a dozen years, even though I keep in contact with cousins.  The irony is that earlier this year my English wife surprised me by saying, “you know we should really think about planning for retiring...how do you feel about Ireland?”

[Mike Sweeney]

There is much wrong in the USA , but there is much more that is right.

Bob,

Thanks for your perspective. I would love to hear an update from Bill Buckley. Before his death he wrote:
 
Buckley criticized certain aspects of policy within the modern conservative movement. Of George W. Bush's presidency, he said, "If you had a European prime minister who experienced what we’ve experienced it would be expected that he would retire or resign." He said, "Bush is "conservative," but he is not a "Conservative," and that the president was not elected "as a vessel of the conservative faith." (Buckley would distinguish between so-called "lowercase c" and "Capital C" conservatives, the latter being True conservatives: fiscally conservative and socially Libertarian or libertarian-leaning). Regarding the War in Iraq, Buckley stated, "The reality of the situation is that missions abroad to effect regime change in countries without a bill of rights or democratic tradition are terribly arduous." He added: "This isn't to say that the Iraq war is wrong, or that history will judge it to be wrong. But it is absolutely to say that conservatism implies a certain submission to reality; and this war has an unrealistic frank and is being conscripted by events." In a February 2006 column published at National Review Online and distributed by Universal Press Syndicate, Buckley stated unequivocally that, "One cannot doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed." Buckley has also stated that "...it's important that we acknowledge in the inner councils of state that it (the war) has failed, so that we should look for opportunities to cope with that failure." According to Jeffrey Hart writing in the American Conservative, Buckley had a "tragic" view of the Iraq war: he "saw it as a disaster and thought that the conservative movement he had created had in effect committed intellectual suicide by failing to maintain critical distance from the Bush administration...At the end of his life, Buckley believed the movement he made had destroyed itself by supporting the war in Iraq."

I left the Republican party during the Bush administration and today I am an Independent. I am in no rush to go back and I hope that the Republican leaders takes this opportunity to re-think their positions or a legitimate Third Party is started. Right now, I believe that we need one party in place to actually get something done in Washington. However, make no mistake, we need a Two Party system and I hope that Republican leaders start to look at what went wrong rather than attacking the other side. I don't agree with everything that Christopher Buckley writes (and that is okay with his father who loved and saw the value of debate), but I certainly don't want to see Rush Limbaugh and his sound bites run a country:


http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-10/the-conservative-case-for-obama/

Christopher Buckley: Dear Pup once said to me, “You know, I’ve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks.”

"Obama has in him—I think, despite his sometimes airy-fairy “We are the people we have been waiting for” silly rhetoric—the potential to be a good, perhaps even great leader. He is, it seems clear enough, what the historical moment seems to be calling for.

So, I wish him all the best. We are all in this together. Necessity is the mother of bipartisanship. And so, for the first time in my life, I’ll be pulling the Democratic lever in November. As the saying goes, God save the United States of America."

[Sean_A]

Bob

I have a reverse immigrant experience if you will, though, I didn't leave the US for any profound reason(s). I left to take advantage of an opportunity and as my daughter was only two I didn't think her life would be badly disrupted.  Its been a good ten years and I don't harbor any feelings of regret or a tinge to move back to the States.  At the moment, the style of life in England suits my outlook on life a bit better than the American style of life, but that isn't a judgement as much as a comment on me.  However, I am still a US citizen and just as responsible for our government's actions as if I were holed up in Ann Arbor.  I am highly critical of the US government and of the British government - mainly due to the wat, which I am very much against.  In fact, I became a citizen of the UK only to have the opportunity to vote.  I don't think it matters a tosh which party is in power for either country when it comes to economic/social issues.  There is very little difference between the four main parties - so I never, I mean never, vote for a party based on these issues. 

Like many Americans, I grew up in a fairly sheltered environment and I am certain I would never have become an immigrant if I did not travel the world for 3 years picking up work here and there, living out of a back pack.  But if these experiences taught me anything, it is that people are people - it doesn't matter where you live.  There are opportunities large and small to be had around the globe and its more down to the person to take advantage of the opportunities rather than for governments to provide them.  However, regardless of opportunities, there will be times when people are in need of help, and like the nature of people, this reality is not altered by where you live or where you were born.  IMO, this is a big reason why governments exist, to help people.  The question policy makers should ask is does my idea help people that need help?  I believe the US & UK governments have strayed so far from this basic tenent that the question rarely gets asked. 

Ciao

[HamiltonBHearst]

Thank you for some much needed perspective Mr. Huntley. 

Mr. Sweeney-was it necessary to inject politics into this thread?  The election will be over in a few days, the sort of life stories chronicled below are what unite us all and I am sorry your post did not make it's way to the other thread.

[John Kavanaugh]

Bob,

Were you surprised at the reaction of the country to the Kennedy assassination?  I would guess that sort of thing was the norm back home.  btw...Whose car did you drive across the country?

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob - good post, as always. The date of your arrival reminds me of my grandmother, who came to Canada in 1960 when she was already in her sixties (the last one of the family to arrive, as my father - who'd come here as a 17 year old -- worked and saved money and brought his family over one by one). She didn't speak English then and never learned, but even 20 years later she'd still tear up when she remembered hearing of John Kennedy's death.  That's remarkable to me. What he 'represented' to her, an immigrant from a tiny farm in southern Italy, I'm not sure -- but I think it's not too far off to say that he represented -- even for someone living in another country -- hope and promise and a new start (all the things that an immigrant dreams off, and that for generations America has done well in delivering). And what's remarkable is that all this 'came across' to her without words, or at least without any words she could understand. Yes, she'd heard from her relatives in the U.S. (living first in Brooklyn and then New Jersey) that they'd done well with President Kennedy in charge, but I think it was an image, an aura that she was responding too -- and I think we can't minimize the power and potential of that kind of communication.  All of which is to say, from an outsider looking in and without arguing economic policy or any other kind of policy, it seems clear to me that many Americans are seeking that image and that aura, of a great and good nation

Peter

[John Mayhugh]

I must say that I am at one with Shivas and Pat Mucci, one can speak of disparity in incomes and minimum wages etc., but anyone that cannot make it in America cannot have tried very hard.

How many of you would travel with a  family and start a new life several thousand miles away with not much money and think you were doing the right thing. Believe me, many millions of non-Americans do.

There is much wrong in the USA , but there is much more that is right.

Bob,
Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective.

I try very hard to stay away from political discussion because I've found that it is rarely productive.  Two people can take the exact same set of facts and reach completely different conclusions.  As long as we have different perspectives, we will interpret things differently.  This is especially true when discussing macroeconomic issues.  I tend to agree with Dave & Pat as well, but know I would have little chance to change anyone's mind so I'll just focus on GCA.

There is indeed much more right than wrong in the USA.  Thanks for pointing that out. 

[Anthony Gray]

  Bob,

  Wonderful topic. I am married to a girl from the Dominican Republic. I went there around five years ago to play Teeth of the Dog. I became friends with my caddie and later returned to do some church work. On one of the later trips I met her. Her father pastors a church now but in the past was a caddie at Casa De Campo.
   When we met I knew very little spanish and she new very little english. It has been an adventure.
 
    After the wedding we were at the resort and I heard her her turn the water on in the sink then I heard her scream. She had never seen hot water before.

    I have spent thousands of dollars on immigration lawyers and hours with immigration officials. Even with the correct papers she was stoped at the Atlanta airport 3 months pregnant and told that she may be denied entrance. They let her into the US but now she is afraid to travel.

   Many people do not realize how difficult, costly, and long it takes to legally immigrate. My wife has not seen family members for two years.

   Thanks for the thread Bob.

     Anthony

[Jon Nolan]

Ireland --> England --> Victoria B.C. --> SLC, Utah

From a GCA perspective I think I got it backwards.

[Voytek Wilczak]

I am an immigrant - came from Poland in 1981.

I also lived in Germany for 3 years and Austria for one year.

I shudder to think that Obama and Pelosi are going to turn this country into a socialist welfare state.

But I am extremely grateful to this country for the 27 years of freedom I experienced here.

[RJ_Daley]

Bob, that is a nice immigrant story.  You and Voytek undoubtedly have the talent and ambition and maybe a few good breaks along the way, to have made good successes of your lives. 

Not all people of immigrant status have so much talent, wisdom, or find the great breaks, IMO.  Many repatriate back to their homelands in failure. 

And, there is a resident population that is an underclass that is without a tradition of ambition, talent, education, etc.  I think most immigrants that are highly motivated by definition of their very successes that they did have high qualities of entreprenuership, ambition, talent and perseverance have no sympathy or time for the underclass here that simply are a conditioned class of under achievement and shiftless despair.  Such class breeds drugs and crime, etc.  You undoubtedly left an underclass of similar social group qualities where you imigrated from.  You guys are the cream of the crop, the ones that can tell your stories with pride.  You can hearld the opportunities that you found and created.  You have the right stuff. 

But, what of the millions of underclass that are dragging the system down?  Why do they exist to such an extent in the first place?  What mistakes were made along the way that perpetuates a large class of people that don't see opportunity, don't have educations, have hopeless drug and economic dependency for generations?  Don't tell me it is just some sort of origin of 'socialist' ideas born of our depression era and Roosevelt New Deal policies that have been handed down to modern day politicians and governance.  Because, you also then need to look at the first waves of imigrants.  Slaves!!!  Then, look at the mid 1800s large scale immigrations, and the abject poverty, discrimination against Irish, Italians, various 'cans', the expoitations of the newest immigrants, and see that many of them only got out of their immigrant poverty status through collective corruption, criminality, and outlaw 'hustle', ultimately translated to political clout. 

Speaking for 'some' of my immigrant family experience, though somewhat embarrassing to say, criminality and skirting the law was very much a part of survival in the 20s-50s. 

Good on you gents to achieve immigrant successful lives.  But, thre are many sides to that American tale...

[Anthony Gray]

Bob, that is a nice immigrant story.  You and Voytek undoubtedly have the talent and ambition and maybe a few good breaks along the way, to have made good successes of your lives. 

Not all people of immigrant status have so much talent, wisdom, or find the great breaks, IMO.  Many repatriate back to their homelands in failure. 

And, there is a resident population that is an underclass that is without a tradition of ambition, talent, education, etc.  I think most immigrants that are highly motivated by definition of their very successes that they did have high qualities of entreprenuership, ambition, talent and perseverance have no sympathy or time for the underclass here that simply are a conditioned class of under achievement and shiftless despair.  Such class breeds drugs and crime, etc.  You undoubtedly left an underclass of similar social group qualities where you imigrated from.  You guys are the cream of the crop, the ones that can tell your stories with pride.  You can hearld the opportunities that you found and created.  You have the right stuff. 

But, what of the millions of underclass that are dragging the system down?  Why do they exist to such an extent in the first place?  What mistakes were made along the way that perpetuates a large class of people that don't see opportunity, don't have educations, have hopeless drug and economic dependency for generations?  Don't tell me it is just some sort of origin of 'socialist' ideas born of our depression era and Roosevelt New Deal policies that have been handed down to modern day politicians and governance.  Because, you also then need to look at the first waves of imigrants.  Slaves!!!  Then, look at the mid 1800s large scale immigrations, and the abject poverty, discrimination against Irish, Italians, various 'cans', the expoitations of the newest immigrants, and see that many of them only got out of their immigrant poverty status through collective corruption, criminality, and outlaw 'hustle', ultimately translated to political clout. 

Speaking for 'some' of my immigrant family experience, though somewhat embarrassing to say, criminality and skirting the law was very much a part of survival in the 20s-50s. 

Good on you gents to achieve immigrant successful lives.  But, thre are many sides to that American tale...

   RJ,

  What tribe did you say you are from?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Bob,

      Thanks for sharing your story.

RJ,

     And yet there are many who manage to break out of the so called underclass and become successful. Surely there can't be a bigger American success story than Obama?  To bring a golf perspective, I forget who said it Hogan or Player "The more I practice the luckier I get".   I think its a mindsight that allows some to succeed where others fail.

[Bob_Huntley]

RJD,

You are right, immigrants of all shades have had a truly rough time but not all moved for their own sakes. At the time I left Africa, Kenya had achieved independence, Zambia( Northern Rhodesia) was to get theirs in a years time. Around about that time a woman I knew was burned to death along with her dog by members of Kenneth Kaunda's UNIP. I made a concious decision that my children desrved better as I had the foresight to see that  things were going to get ugly. They did and I look to Zimbabwe to confirm that I was right.

The multitudes of whom you speak, the Irish, Italians and even former slaves never formed a reverse diaspora, so something must have kept them here.

Immigrants are the adventurers of the world and took chances, the more succesful and conservatives stayed at home.

Bob

[Jeff Fortson]

Mr. Huntley,

Nice post.  I admire your courage and obvious hard work to make a life in this country.  The only thing I disagree with is your statement that if you don't make it in this country then you must not have worked very hard.  That is a common theme from those that have made a nice living in the US.  I can tell you there are plenty of people that work their ass off everyday and will never be able to own a membership to a golf club like yourself. 

Please don't take offense, I admire and respect you completely, I just think that it's not as black and white as you make it in terms of trying or working hard.


With much respect,

Jeff F.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Mr Daley thank you for your post but please don't attribute your personal family immigrant experience and possible skirting of the law with the typical immigrant experience in this country.  That is absurd.

"Then, look at the mid 1800s large scale immigrations, and the abject poverty, discrimination against Irish, Italians, various 'cans', the expoitations of the newest immigrants, and see that many of them only got out of their immigrant poverty status through collective corruption, criminality, and outlaw 'hustle', ultimately translated to political clout.  

Speaking for 'some' of my immigrant family experience, though somewhat embarrassing to say, criminality and skirting the law was very much a part of survival in the 20s-50s.  

Good on you gents to achieve immigrant successful lives.  But, thre are many sides to that American tale..."

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob,

Were you surprised at the reaction of the country to the Kennedy assassination?  I would guess that sort of thing was the norm back home.  btw...Whose car did you drive across the country?

John,

I was surprised, not at the emotion it engendered but at the reaction of the chattering classes in their pontifications about political hatreds. I think that the assassination  made people think long and hard what it meant to be a democracy and not a banana republic.

The owner of the car was Dr. Lester Hoversten, the former partner of Dr. Sam Shepard when they  practised in Shaker Heights. I knew very little about him, until I picked up a book on the Shepard Murder Trial in a Howard Johnson's restaurant whilst driving through Pennsylvania. I looked up from my passenger seat and saw the man and then had a pretty interesting couple of hours learning about the power of the press, in this case The Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Bob

[Charlie Goerges]

Bob,

You are right to say that there is more right with this country than wrong with it. I would go further and say that this will always be the case so long as there is a United States of America and the reason is this:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Amendment VII
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

However, like RJ, I must take issue with this sentiment:

… but anyone that cannot make it in America cannot have tried very hard.

RJ has already enumerated many of the reasons why this is not always the case, so I won’t rehash his points. The aforementioned political thread contains some real, honest disagreement as to the best method to help those in less than fortunate circumstances. And to the extent that each side is interested in helping those in need (whichever mechanism the respective posters prefer: less government intervention or more), I am glad of the open discourse. I would just ask that everyone try to view those less fortunate with real sympathy (not merely empathy) and understanding. And realize also, that the motives of those with a differing political outlook are likely just as pure as one’s own.

Charlie

[John Kirk]

I am a second generation American on my father's side.  My grandfather and grandmother immigrated from Clydebank, Scotland around 1919.  Clydebank is an industrial area just west of Glasgow.  My grandfather was the oldest of 10 children.  He never returned to Scotland, having left partly because he feared persecution over his political beliefs.

At one point early in his American experience, grandpa was down to his last $5, which he used to buy grandma a large bouquet of roses.  Shortly afterwards he walked into a machine shop (this may have been in Lynn, Massachusetts), found the boss, and declared, "I can operate any machine in this shop.".  The boss said, "OK. Show me.", and although he had never used many of these machines before, systematically proved he could operate each one, and got the job.

Bill Kirk Sr. played soccer professionally in America for a short period of time, having played on the national "B" team in Scotland.  He also brought the game of golf with him.  Agnes and Bill Kirk had one son, Bill Jr. in 1927.  He taught young Bill how to play golf, and continued to play throughout his life.  When I was a child, my grandpa would give me cut down golf clubs as birthday and Christmas presents, and although I didn't pick up golf in earnest until my 20s, I used them in the backyard to hit plastic balls.  When I finally took up the game, my father and I enjoyed a 25 year career of enjoying golf together.

As he got older, he would often look around the Thanksgiving or Christmas table and declare in his Scottish brogue, "We are a very lucky family."  Bill Kirk Sr. died in early 1988 at the age of 95.

[Bob_Huntley]

However, like RJ, I must take issue with this sentiment:

Quote from: Bob_Huntley on Today at 12:34:10 am
… but anyone that cannot make it in America cannot have tried very hard.


RJ has already enumerated many of the reasons why this is not always the case, so I won’t rehash his points. The aforementioned political thread contains some real, honest disagreement as to the best method to help those in less than fortunate circumstances. And to the extent that each side is interested in helping those in need (whichever mechanism the respective posters prefer: less government intervention or more), I am glad of the open discourse. I would just ask that everyone try to view those less fortunate with real sympathy (not merely empathy) and understanding. And realize also, that the motives of those with a differing political outlook are likely just as pure as one’s own.

Charlie


Charlie and RJD,

You are right, the sentence does sound wrong. However, when I said "make it' I was not talking about success, however measured, but that one's life and that of succeeding generations turns out better than if one had stayed put.  Mr. Mugabe proves my personal point.

Bob

[Kirk Gill]

Mr. Huntley,

I enjoyed very much reading of your immigrant experience. My family has been here a long time, with roots in both England and Scotland, and like a lot of folks whose families have been here a long time, I probably grew up taking this country for granted. Natural enough, but still. As an adult I feel like I have a fuller appreciation for what this country has offered me, and offers others.

One issue that has been brought up during the course of our current election is the notion that those who in some ways find fault with this great country are less than patriotic, and that the "real" Americans are those who only espouse the positive. I believe that having a mature perspective should allow one to see more than one side of a complex issue, and that a desire to change things that seem wrong is in the best interest of this country, or any country. I would reiterate Mr. Goerges' excellent point: "...the motives of those with a differing political outlook are likely just as pure as one’s own."

Mr. Huntley's experience moving to the USA and making it his own country can be instructive for all of us who live here, even if many others who have come here have stories that are decidedly different. Both kinds of stories are about the "real" America.

[Charlie Goerges]

Bob,

I agree with you that in most, if not all, cases the people who come here are better off than where they were. The sentence sounded somewhat uncharitable (as you mentioned), but I assumed that it was not meant to be such. My reply was meant to ask you to flesh out that fact, and your reply has done so more succinctly than I could have asked for. The fact that I felt compelled to address it at all is perhaps explained by my own experience.

My own grandfather emigrated to this country from Germany in 1950 at the age of 18 and made a good life, building a successful company in the process. Unfortunately, he is of the opinion that if one hasn't achieved monetary success/comfort, one must not be trying very hard. A rather uncharitable viewpoint, and one that, in him, doesn't seem compatible with personal happiness. I don't know whether his viewpoint is related to his unhappiness in any way, but I suspect that it is. So I try to dissuade people from taking this viewpoint whenever it is expressed.

As I said, I assumed the best about your intentions Bob, and my assumption was confirmed in your reply. I also assume the motives/intention of those posting on the political thread are good, and I ask everyone else to do the same. I only wish my grandpa could have done so as well.

Charlie

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