18 at Bethpage Black

[Anthony Fowler]

I don't mean to take any steam away from the other thread, but I would like to talk about the merits of this hole alone.  With this thread I am not interested in comparing it to 18 on the Red, evaluating it for a U.S. Open specifically, or even considering its place as the finisher.



What do you think of it as a stand alone golf hole?  What is good and what is bad?



After giving it some thought, I think this hole is much more interesting for me (a competent player who doesn't hit the ball nearly as consistently as the pros) than it is for the pros.  For those guys, they can hit a a long iron off the tee and play a mid iron into the green without too much challenge.  For me, if I lay back, I won't be able to consistently hit the green with a long club, and I might even miss the fairway every once in a while with an iron.  I actually think the better play for me is to hit driver.  If I hit the fairway, great.  The hole's pretty easy from there.  If I miss, I probably have a 9 iron or pitching wedge from a fairway bunker.  Barring some awful lie, I probably like that better than the 6 iron from the fairway.  What does everyone else think?  How do you play the hole?   

[Anthony Fowler]

I'd like to add one more thought.

I think this hole serves as a great example that a narrow hole with trouble on both sides can also be strategic.  It makes the player (or me at least) make a tough decision on the tee box. Then, whatever you decide, you have to execute.

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony:

Let's start with the simple question -- are there any merits to the hole?

I've played the course 200+ times encompassing a 30+ year period and have always scratched my head when standing on the tee because it's a big time letdown from what you have experienced on all the inner half holes there.

Anthony, the pros had no issue with the hole when played in '02. For the average unaffiliated player there will be issues -- my God, these people would have issues simply because of the inconsistency of their shotmaking execution.

The 18th at BB should have been redesigned to be a short and possible driveable hole. That way you accomplish two important things -- you make the hole standout for its absence of length as the major weakness of BB is that it has no real world class short holes on the par-4 side. And the second point is that you would add a good bit more drama to the conclusion of any round -- especially the fourth round of next year's US Open.

My wish list won't happen but the existing hole is dreadful and all the apologists for it want to make the case that people who hate the hole likely don't like the Black. That's notmy story -- my specific criticism centers around a botched plastic surgery job there that does nothing to cap a day on such a unique piece of golf real estate.

p.s. To you second post -- the added bunkers are clutter for the sake of C-L-U-T-T-E-R. Would have been better off simply having a solitary bunker right in the middle of the fairway placed from 230 to 290 yards.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

There is nothing strategic about the hole.  Because it is usually into a 1 club breeze, the decision made on the tee is simply what club will penetrate the wind so that it does not miss the fairway.  This is an either or hole--the ball is hit in either the fairway or finds the bunkers.  The strategic worry is that if you find the bunkers, hopefully, you don't miss the next one into the fescue tongues.  The greenside fescue tongues are the most penal hazards I've found anywhere in the world!  A few years ago I hit the green hot and found the fescue and 7 to finish tied for 28th instead of 12th in  the NY Open. From the fairway, a shot to the middle of the green leaves a very makeable birdie putt.  There is no reason to play for a tucked pin because the genericly shaped green makes middle best.

[Anthony Fowler]

Thanks for the comments.  Both of you have played the hole many more times than I, but I'm going to disagree with you.  I am perfectly willing to change my mind after more rounds at BB and hearing more of your views.

Robert, I think the strategy of the hole is that there is a continuum of options off the tee.  I think the decision is much more complicated than you have stated.  Given the demanding nature of the approach uphill to a firm green, the second shot is exponentially harder the longer it is.  At the same time, the fairway grows significantly harder to hit the further you try to hit your tee shot.  Given the thick rough and the chances of funny lies in the bunker complexes on both sides, the tee shot really is a risk-reward opportunity.  This, Matt, is what I believe to be the merit of the hole. 

A few years ago I hit the green hot and found the fescue and 7 to finish tied for 28th instead of 12th in  the NY Open.

Robert, I think you have illustrated some of the strategy involved.  Had you successfully hit a longer club off the tee, you would not have had this problem.  If you leave yourself too far back, you find a more difficult second and leave this outcome as a possibility.

p.s. To you second post -- the added bunkers are clutter for the sake of C-L-U-T-T-E-R. Would have been better off simply having a solitary bunker right in the middle of the fairway placed from 230 to 290 yards.

I'm not sure that clutter is their only purpose.  I'm sure Rees likes the visual appeal.  They also serve to add volatility to missed tee shots.  You might have a clean lie or you might be in the fescue or up against a lip. 

I don't agree about the middle solitary bunker.  This design would leave 4 discrete options: left, right, long, or short.  I much prefer the many options currently present.  As an aside, I think this feature would be better utilized on the 15th (already a very good hole).  If you widened the fairway to the left and then place a large bunker or set of bunkers in the center, you could create some interesting options off the tee.  Presumably one could design it such that right or short of the bunker were safer but left longer approaches than challenging the narrower left side.   
 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I have never hit anything other than driver on the 18th since we usually are playing fairly soft fairways in late July.  The hot wedge was a result of being in a sand filled divot on the right collar rough.  I really do not hit a tee shot with fear, but sometimes it is hard to get your breath in time to effectively tee off after the steep walk up to the tee.  There is enough slope in the back 10 feet of green to hold a longer shot, so I have never approached a tee ball layback as possibly making the approach significantly more difficult.

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony:

Try to keep this in mind -- some architects believe that simply adding more and more bunkers will somehow right the ship and make a hole better. It fails miserably at BB's 18th hole.

The better player -- the ones playing at the '09 US Open will NOT hit driver so the pinching in of the landing area deeper down the fairway will not come into play.

They have the luxury in having a green that's relatively benign as RCD as already pointed out. Therefore, one can hit a mid-iron and play to the fat portion of the green and still feel comfortable knowing that you still have a good birdie try with limited risk of a three-jack.

You mention the "visual appeal." Candidly, what is the "visual appeal" because I don't see the "appeal?" I simply see a piling on of bunkers for the sake of bunkers -- they are stacked like dominos upon each other.

Anthony, you have this notion of players being too far back -- I don't see your argument because I attended the '02 US Open and have played the hole with that very thought in mind. As I said before -- when players lay back they have nothing more than a mid-iron into the target. You make it sound like if they lay back they will have a long iron or even hybrid into the target. It doesn't happen unless the headwind encountered were severe. The wind pattern in Farmingdale is not the same as you have further east on the Island -- such as the Hamptons and the like.

For the flip side of the situation -- those who are weaker players can hit driver to a wide fairway and still be sure of the pinch in point where the bunkers flock closer together.

Is there a possibility for weaker player to miss a tee shot? Sure, but the design elements of the hole are purely pedestrian in their strategic calculations -- primarily of the vanilla and chocolate variety.

Having a solitary center-placed bunker - similar to what Doak did with the 3rd at Pac Dunes you can have a good bit more variety to the hole and force more decisions than are currently in play now.

Anthony, the evolving reputation of BB is simply about having more and more length and more and more difficulty. World class golf, as I agree with Doak on this point, is that no such course that aspires to be world class can reach that lofty step without a world class short hole. The 18th at BB could have been redesigned with that thought in mind. Driving the green could also have been thrown into the picture with the movement of tees for given rounds. This would have worked especially well with the hole as the closer of the '09 US Open.

I am a huge fan of BB -- but the recent changes do not expand the creativity of the course itself. They are based on a narrow vision of upping the demand feature. It's sad because the Black has become the baseball version of Nolan Ryan -- capable in throwing 100+ fastballs but having little else in its considerable arsenal to be seen as the complete pitcher / course.

[Anthony Fowler]

Once again, thanks for the comments.  Robert, I said from the beginning that the hole is less interesting for the best ball strikers and this may be the case for you.  Maybe I will agree with you after more rounds at BB.

Matt, I only suggested that Rees like the visual.  This is clearly a matter of taste.  I have seen similar visuals praised on this site because they are designed by a different name.

BB IMO is already a world class course, even sans a short par 4.  I don't think we need such a formulaic approach, but I do agree that BB would improve with a good short par 4.  I think what the course most needs is a little more interest on the greens.  As of right now, I think it is the best course tee to green that I have ever played and is a little bland on the putting surfaces.

I can agree that given the rest of the course, 18 would be a good opportunity for a shorter par 4.  However, I maintain that the current 18th has architectural merit on its own.  Perhaps if it were not the closer of a U.S. Open course, we would be praising it. 
 

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony:

When you say the same type of visuals have been praised on this site I have to add that I would say the same thing about the visuals at BB's 18th hole if they remained the same and were designed by another person.

The issue is not Rees Jones -- but what's been done to the hole itself. If a different person included the same result my feelings would remain the same.

Have to part company with you -- I agree w Tom Doak that by definition a world class course must have among its 18-hole layout a superior short hole -- at least one of them. BB doesn't have that -- it's primarily a fastball type course -- throwing one long hole after the other.

You are right when you talk about the demands. In my opinion, it's one of the toughest tee shot courses because if you don't get off the tee with sufficient distance and accuracy the ball game is OVER. If you added the demands of greens found at WF/W the likelihood is that no players would ever finish.

But brute strength should not be the rallying cry for greatness alone.

You still cling to your belief that the 18th has architectural merit.

You have not made the case partner and you've heard from at least a few people who have thrown forward a variety of compelling arguments. In closing, I feel the same about BB's 18th and would say the same thing even if the hole were the 5th or 12th. It still needs to be changed dramatically because it could really add to the luster of the course. Right now -- I see the hole as constituted as a big time anchor around its neck and I say that as a big time fan of the place.