Maidstone

[TEPaul]

"Exactly Tom.
It's remarkably visionary; especially for a time when it wasn't as easy to move massive amounts of material around a site. Funny, too, that some people would undoubtedly put Maidstone up as a "poster child" for "minimalist" architecture; when, in reality, Park makes a MASSIVE cut in the 9th fairway to fill the 7th hole. Awesome stuff.
While we were building Sagebrush, in British Columbia -- which involved blasting rock and some pretty heavy earthmoving in places -- I'd joke with Rod Whitman, saying: "Finally! Some real golf course architecture!"


Jeff:

What you said there and what I know you and I are talking about is what it really is all about in the final analysis.

I actually have my own particular definition of what "architecture" is and most certainly when it's applied to a overused term like"minimalism."

I think too many, even on this website think "minimalism" in golf architecture ONLY means golf architecture that moves a minimum amount of earth or architecture that basically only uses natural landforms largely unaltered.

It does mean that to me if that's what happens on a course but "architectural minimalism" also means to me "hiding the hand of Man" even if tons and tons of earth is moved and pre-existing landforms are altered massively for the purpose of golf but if few or even anyone can ever tell it was done or isn't naturally occuring.

Even the term "architecture" seems confusing in the context of golf. Some think it is as simple as just people playing over land in the 17th or 18th century by doing nothing more than cutting a hole in the ground. That really isn't "golf course architecture" to me. To me "architecture" connotes Man actually building something and I think that's why one definition of "minimalist" architecture makes sense----eg the architect didn't do much because he didn't think it was necessary to with what he could find or conceptualize for golf holes and still have it be excellent.

What's best at either end of that spectrum or extreme?

Who knows, but in some ways I personally like and admire the guy who can really do a lot and make it look like he didn't do anything. That sure sounds like Park at Maidstone to me.

The only thing left for people like us to consider is----what if he never thought of lowering about 300 plus yards of the entire centerline of the 9th at Maidstone by about ten feet throughout and using it for the 7th? What would it have been like then if he never did that? My sense is nowhere near as good as what he imagined and then did and the way it is now.

And I can tell you another thing. If I'd seen that ground and grade out there the way it once was before Park got there and conceived of all this, would I have seen the possibilities he did by making those massive earthen alterations the way he did?

Not in a million years. And that's why I could never hold Parks socks in that way. For me to find good holes I have to figure out how to use basically what's natural out there and then maybe just enhance it a bit by creating angles or whatever or angles with man-made features that're pretty minimal in an earth-moving sense. That even feels better to me instinctively. Matter of fact, the entire idea of moving really large amounts of earth does not appeal to me but that is probably just my own subliminal rationalization for the fact I just ain't got the imagination to even conceive of it the way Park did with Maidstone's 9th, a hole that remains probably my favorite par 4 in the world.

[Mike_Cirba]

Some modern enthusiasts claim that Maidstone is overrated, and wholly dependent on the dunes holes as well as its toney address for its vaunted reputation.

I couldn't disagree more.

Given a choice of playing only 20 courses for the rest of my life, Maidstone would be a shoo-in.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike C:

I happen to be a golf enthusiast (you tagged it with the "modern" element) and I do believe the place is overrated. And you hit the nail squarely on the head for me because the dunes holes are the ones that really make the place unique. I am a big time fan of the par-4 9th and see it as one of the USA's top tier holes.

But the place too often gets a pass on a number of holes that are bystanders when it comes time to defining superior architecture. It also helps to have a "tony address" as you stated because people may erroneously believe that anything with a "hamptons" in it must mean golf design of the highest order.

Mike, I'm happy you like the course and would include it among your personal top 20. You say it's a "shoo-in" for you -- let's just say you and see Maidstone in far different ways.

But please keep in mind that I don't accept the term "modern" enthusiast because it seems to suggest a lack of appreciation of the classic old time courses. That's far from the case with me.
 

[John Mayhugh]

The overall atmosphere of Maidstone is very Old World and to me the whole place, club, beach club, course and all just screams, style, Style, STYLE!!

I've never thought of this until this moment but if for some reason North America was left with only one golf course I would hope it could be Maidstone, because for a number of reasons it probably represents both ends of the entire spectrum in American golf if not golf from abroad back in the day too even though for most who first see it, it may tend more towards the old end of that entire spectrum of golf over here.

Tom P,
Though I don't always agree with you, your obvious reverence for Maidstone made me smile.  Truly a special place.  It might be one of the best courses in the world to take a golf acquaintance to as a test.  If they don't love Maidstone, they may just be a lost cause.  The vibe there is unbelievable.  It feels like a hundred years and an ocean away.

I was fortunate enough to be there that day with Spaulding, Stamm & Robert Ball.  Unfortunately, there was an event going on and we weren't able to go into the clubhouse.  Hopefully some day I'll have a chance to verify your statement about the view of the pool from there. 

Here are a few photos to supplement Jon's.  As requested, here's one of the 8th tee.  Not very good quality because of the sun.


As we neared the 8th green.


This is one of my favorite photos from the day, and not just because of Stamm's sand shot.  What a raw, untamed looking greenside bunker.  Isn't it beautiful?


After hitting the bunker shot, you need a bit of help getting onto the green surface.


And here is the 8th green from behind.




I took this photo of the 9th hole from the dune right of the tee.  It's a little better look at the hole than the basic view from the tee.


Finally, I just loved this view from the 14th green.


Sometimes it feels a little geeky taking all those pics, but as I start looking through them and remembering the day, I wish that I had hundreds more even though photos don't do Maidstone justice.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I love you, but your lack of appreciation for Maidstone is one of the 10 greatest architectural mistakes of the 20th century.   

It's right between the building of Country Club of The Poconos at Big Ridge and the decision of Oak Hill to call in George and Tom Fazio to build them some new holes on the East course.     

[C. Squier]

Was fortunate to play Maidstone for the first time last this summer.  It was late in the day and a thick fog was rolling in.  We felt a little bummed about it, but as we got closer to the middle of the course along the dunes, we got the feeling that there were no better conditions to play in to get the full experience.  Almost had a spooky feel to it, a different world.  If I never get back to Maidstone, I'll have a the memory of one of the coolest rounds of golf I've ever played to tide me over.  

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I appreciate your love for the old time stuff -- but you need to wipe away the fog on your lens to get a total sense of the shortcomings that exists there.

When Maidstone is good -- it can be really awesome -- in those narrow spots. The issue is whether the rest of the course actually adds to the time there. I don't see it. The course also benefits from a spillover of critical acclaim that Shinny and NGLA receive.

Mike, I love you too, but please pull back my being linked to CC of the Poconos or the Oak Hill fiasco. My God man -- that's akin to being called un-American.

I

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike:

I appreciate your love for the old time stuff -- but you need to wipe away the fog on your lens to get a total sense of the shortcomings that exists there.

When Maidstone is good -- it can be really awesome -- in those narrow spots. The issue is whether the rest of the course actually adds to the time there. I don't see it. The course also benefits from a spillover of critical acclaim that Shinny and NGLA receive.

Mike, I love you too, but please pull back my being linked to CC of the Poconos or the Oak Hill fiasco. My God man -- that's akin to being called un-American.

I

Matt,

I must admit those comparisons make me feel a bit like Michelle Bachman!   

Ok...I'll admit that...but I have to ask...are your problems with Maidstone due to your Socialistic bent, or to your spending 20 years in a church with a radical preacher....or perhaps the unexplained time you spent in the hills of Nevada palling around with domestic terrorists at that insurgent course at Wolf Creek?!?!   

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I foud Maidstone to be a near perfect Members Club. Is the course hard no, is it long? no, is the routing very good? yes, is the course fun? yes, is the course a delightful test of golf for all skill levels? yes !!! is the course a wonderful walk for men and women of all ages and skill levels? yes!!!

[Wayne Freeman]

 To me,  Maidstone is akin to Cypress Point-   intimate and just a joy to play.  It may have somewhat of a pedestrian start and finish,  but there are at least 4 all world par 4's and 3 awesome par 3's.  Too bad the pictures of 8 are not that great.  That hole is so cool...   you're hitting almost a completely blind tee shot over a huge sand dune and can get only a small peek at the green.  Although it's pretty short at about 150 yards,  it's not an easy shot and the wind can cause some havoc.  Actually I think the stretch of holes from 6-11 is just about as good as it gets.  The 10th green is severely sloped and extremely treacherous.  Shinnecock and National get lots more attention and discussion,  but to play Maidstone takes you back in time and is just plain pure golf.

[TEPaul]

"Tom P,
Though I don't always agree with you, your obvious reverence for Maidstone made me smile.  Truly a special place."

John Mayhugh:

I guess I do have a certain reverence for Maidstone because it is a pretty unusual place and course in this day and age. But I can understand what a guy like Matt Ward says about it. I think he just tends to look at all the individual pieces of a course (the individual holes) for their particular strengths and weakness or challenge and then just sort of totals them up to make his anaylsis of the quality of a course and its architecture. I think his technique with any course is to come at it as a rater. I don't do that and I frankly couldn't care less about rating courses.

I just really love Maidstone and everything about it. Can it be easy to score on? Of course it can if the conditions and weather are conducive. Maidstone is probably one of the few courses I knew of when I was playing scratch golf I could go low on because even though I was short off the tee I could easily sneak up on those par 5s and birdie them. I think I shot a 67 there once or twice (which is five under on that particular course) and I usually didn't go low like that, I was always just sort of consistent in the low 70s.

And that course could really play firm and fast sometimes because it had no fairway irrigation. I loved that about it too.

I don't know that Maidstone should be ranked high in some architectural ratings but that doesn't matter to me. It's the aura of the club and the aura of the course and its architecture---all of it, all the little Old World details that I love.

The course will always be one of my favorites.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Very funny -- but sometimes I have to help those confused minds that have been walking with very dark "McCain classic lover at all costs" sunlgasses on for too long.

I like the course for what it does offer -- in those spots where it excels. But too many people Mike -- sad to include you on this list -- simply develop classic school amnesia and dismiss the lesser elements as inconsequential or worse yet turn things around and proclaim that barbarians like me are simply out of touch. The total package is what I look at -- from the 1st tee shot through to the last putt.

There's no doubt the club has a certain aura -- heck, the hamptons have been doing that for scores of people for a number of generations. 

Maidstone is an interesting place and deserves to be saluted. I'm just not one of those who see it as belonging with the elite of elites we have in golf.

Last point -- Mike don't quickly dismiss the new and sometimes quirky places that have opened in the recent past -- e.g. Wolf Creek. Of course, you may be inclined to lend your support to gal who is completely out of her league too. Say it ain't so partner !

[Jon Spaulding]

Wayne Freeman; I concur with you here. Well stated.

Tom Paul; thanks for the kind words and shout out. What I found unique at Maidstone was the intimacy offered by the adjacent fairways. When one is on the 10th, no real sense that the 9th is next door. Same can be said about 6, 11, 13, 15, etc. Very solid.

I started by excluding the feature holes but then backed off. Here are a few photos of the 8th.

[Greg Ohlendorf]

Jon,

Thanks so much for the photos. I played with Clint in September and we were fortunate to see 70 yards for most of the middle section of the course due to the heavy fog. We almost played by feel, but what a feel it was! Seeing your pics on a nice day certainly adds to my experience there. I agree with the slow start and finish, but the remainder of the track is excellent. A true throwback to times gone by. We probably could all learn a course conditioning lesson here as less is certainly more. Hope to "see" it again some day!

[TEPaul]

Greg:

I played a round or two in the Maidstone Bowl where there was fog at particularly times where you couldn't see 5 yards in front of you. I doubt they would've started the round if the whole course had been like that but it has a funny way of sort of rolling in on you and then out again after a few holes. It's an odd experience to hit a drive or an approach when you can't see five steps in front of you. But what the hell, I guess I've hit practice shots enough when it's about totally dark to know how to handle that kind of thing. I convince myself to really keep my head down with the thought that what's the point of looking up at all anyway?

[C. Squier]

#9 & #10 in the fog Greg and I played in.  Tee shot on #10 was especially a leap of faith. 

[Patrick Kiser]

Great thread.

That 14th immediately reminded me a little of the 3rd at SpyGlass but without those homes.

Some of the bunkers remind me of Colt's work from the Swinley Forest profile.  Just lovely shape and countours.  The 13th FW, 15th greenside, and shared 3rd and 16th come to mind.

That's a fantastic story on the 9th.  Who would have thought?  It makes you wonder if Willie came up with it by himself ... or did someone in his entourage help him out?

However, something does seem odd about the bunkers shown off the right to the 8th greenside.  Is it me or do those seem out of character with the rest of the course?  They seem shaped to me and you just sense the "hand of man" at play on this.

About the fog...  Isn't it awesome?  I love it.  We get it here at Sharp Park, Lincoln Park, Harding Park, and obviously Olympic (maybe SFGC).  It must be really creepy on the Lake course of Olympic.

When it fogs in at Maistone, does it really pick up wind wise?  It certainly does here and you feel even more in the clouds.

Thanks for sharing.  What a course...

[ChipOat]

Around about 1974, I decided that, if I could only play one course for the rest of my life, it would be Maidstone.  While it's not the very finest golf course I've ever played, it's still my favorite.  Since then (34 years ago) I've had the good fortune to play a few others that we've all discussed on GCA, and I've only replaced Maidstone with Cypress Point because CPC is a 12 month/year opportunity and Maidstone is, at best, 6 months.  Were it not for having to take Nov-April off, Maidstone would still be my choice for "if I could only play one....." - despite the acknowledged "greatness" of others.  National would seem to be a more logical choice for me but, objectively, I'm not such a great putter and Maidstone's greens are far less demanding - especially now that all the Golden Era greens are maintained at faster speeds than that for which they were designed.

I see Matt's point and I've always thought that Maidstone is a Top 3 golf "place" in the entire world more than a Top 10 golf course.  On the other hand, it's still a damn fine layout!  I think it's at least the equal of Kittansett, Oyster Harbors, Sankaty Head, et al and, for my money (which isn't much), it's right up there with Fishers Island.

Maidstone suffers from being compared to SH and NGLA.  If it were located all by itself on the North Fork or on Martha's Vineyard, I'd wager it would be rated a touch higher by most folks.

And if the weather was playable 10 months/year, I'd put it ahead of Cypress - I enjoy the golf course that much.

Jon Spaulding:

The flagstick on #8 appears to be of normal height.  They used to have a 12' flagstick on that green so you could see it from the tee box and have a better idea where to aim.  Has that changed?

[Matt_Ward]

Chipoat:

Got to ask you this -- how much of your feelings for Maidstone are tied to a large degree because of your own personal success / connection to what the layout does for your own golf game?

For example, you have certain people here on GCA who respect Shinnecock, Winged Foot / West and Bethpage / Black for what they provide but when it comes to actual love those feelings move to other places like NGLA or Maidstone, Quaker or Fenway or Garden City GC because from a golfing standpoint they can experience some sort of real success versus the sheer intensity they usually encounter when playing any of the aforementioned layouts. Just something to think about.

One small difference between us ...

I see Maidstone benefiting immensely from being in the neighborhood it occupies. Place the course elsewhere and I don't know if it would generate as high a placement. Better than CP? Wow -- quite a compliment but CP has few holes from the minite you tee off -- the lone apparent drag -- the closing hole.

[JNC Lyon]

I see Maidstone benefiting immensely from being in the neighborhood it occupies. Place the course elsewhere and I don't know if it would generate as high a placement.

I would have to disagree with this statement.  If anything I think Maidstone is underrated because of its location.  It is overshadowed by NGLA, Shinnecock, Fishers Island, Friars Head, GCGC, Bethpage, etc.  Would Sand Hills be ranked higher if it were in Southampton, NY instead of Mullen, Nebraska???  If anything, I think course benefits when it is the only high profile course in its area.  I think this is one reason why Oak Hill is consistently ranked so highly against its downstate competitors.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC Lyon:

How can Maidstone suffer when it's already in the top 100 by nearly all the pubs now ?

The aura of "The Hamptons" has been the catalyst in driving eyeballs to the place. Throw the course in some other location and its problematic at best that as many people would play it for a whole list of reasons.

I can tell you this -- Fisher's Island would derive an even greater following if the course was not as remote as it is now.

You ask about Sand Hillls -- let's use a better example that's there now. Sebonack has not suffered one iota in being at the doorstep of these places. If anything -- it's gained a serious foothold. Place Maidstone in some rural outpost -- like the northern plains and it would be getting far less ink.

Oak Hill gets the attention because of the fallacy that major championships are the hallmark of great courses. If Oak Hill didn't have the majors there would be far less attention paid to it. That's not to say the overall architecture is less than solid in so many spots but the periodic majors keeps the course in the main frame of attention from media and the public at-large.

[Jon Spaulding]

Around about 1974, I decided that, if I could only play one course for the rest of my life, it would be Maidstone.  While it's not the very finest golf course I've ever played, it's still my favorite.  Since then (34 years ago) I've had the good fortune to play a few others that we've all discussed on GCA, and I've only replaced Maidstone with Cypress Point because CPC is a 12 month/year opportunity and Maidstone is, at best, 6 months.  Were it not for having to take Nov-April off, Maidstone would still be my choice for "if I could only play one....." - despite the acknowledged "greatness" of others.  National would seem to be a more logical choice for me but, objectively, I'm not such a great putter and Maidstone's greens are far less demanding - especially now that all the Golden Era greens are maintained at faster speeds than that for which they were designed.

I see Matt's point and I've always thought that Maidstone is a Top 3 golf "place" in the entire world more than a Top 10 golf course.  On the other hand, it's still a damn fine layout!  I think it's at least the equal of Kittansett, Oyster Harbors, Sankaty Head, et al and, for my money (which isn't much), it's right up there with Fishers Island.

Maidstone suffers from being compared to SH and NGLA.  If it were located all by itself on the North Fork or on Martha's Vineyard, I'd wager it would be rated a touch higher by most folks.

And if the weather was playable 10 months/year, I'd put it ahead of Cypress - I enjoy the golf course that much.

Jon Spaulding:

The flagstick on #8 appears to be of normal height.  They used to have a 12' flagstick on that green so you could see it from the tee box and have a better idea where to aim.  Has that changed?

The flag was definitely normal height and I could not see it from the tee. With the breeze we had, not being able to see might have been a good thing!

[TEPaul]

I believe Maidstone is one of those odd courses that SOME people may not understand at first---or appreciate much at first. I think this is something that a ton of people have gone through for years with TOC and also to some degree with Seminole.

Some people love those courses at first blush but some don't at all at first blush going all the way back to even Bob Jones with TOC.  Then he grew to love it and he explained why beautifully.

I've seen people say the same about Seminole and Maidstone when they first see it but I've seen very, very few say the same thing about either course once they come to know them over time. I think Maidstone is the same sort of thing.

Maybe this is what a Matt Ward needs to understand and appreciate.

How many times have you played Maidstone, Matt Ward? I'm betting certainly once and not more than twice.


I also hate to see remarks like this one below from anyone but I’ve seen so many of them from Matt Ward:

“It also helps to have a "tony address" as you stated because people may erroneously believe that anything with a "hamptons" in it must mean golf design of the highest order.”

To me that just shows the ongoing automatic bias Matt Ward seems to have against what he considers rich people or rich clubs or "elitists". I don’t think that is something that needs to go into a golf architectural analysis. 

[C. Squier]

The flag was definitely normal height and I could not see it from the tee. With the breeze we had, not being able to see might have been a good thing!

I didn't take the pin out, nor put it back in.....in fact, I was too busy making bogey to even notice.  However, I believe it was a longer pin.  Which I generally don't like, especially when you can see the exact location of the pin walking up an adjacent hole, as is the case walking up #7. 

[Ari Techner]

I was lucky enough to spend a day at Maidstone last week.  We played the championship 18 and then the shorter 9 hole course.  I really loved the place.  It definitely has an old world charm.  The people could not have been nicer, it was a great experience.  What struck me was what a great, unique piece of land the course was on.  It is not often that you see a piece of land with that much natural water on the interior of the course and the ocean bordering one side and 3 holes.  This water was used to perfection imo as you can challenge it as much as you want to gain advantage but you are rarely forced to contend with it if you dont want to. 
Aside from the obvious great holes along the ocean I thought some of the interior holes like #2, #3, #5, #6, #10 were standout with really spectacular green complexes.