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Anthony Gray

Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2008, 01:13:41 PM »



  Does enyone know the average income of supers?



Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2008, 01:31:45 PM »
Anthony,
  Heres a few for example

                                        Alabama   U.S.
Median/50th percentile   $68,000 $66,000
75th percentile                $85,000 $87,550
90th percentile              $105,000 $115,000

                                       California     U.S.
Median/50th percentile   $85,000   $66,000
75th percentile              $107,000  $87,550
90th percentile               $134,645  $115,000

                                          New York        U.S.
Median/50th percentile         $75,000 $66,000
75th percentile                    $110,000 $87,550
90th percentile                    $160,000 $115,000

                                                   Indiana   U.S.
Median/50th percentile             $60,500 $66,000
75th percentile                          $78,250 $87,550
90th percentile                          $95,000 $115,000

 Anthony,
  John's still bitter because they have to aerified the greens at Vic during the summer to help the remain healthy and remove organic matter. he questions EVERYTHING the superintendents does there, whos a really good supt.



Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2008, 01:41:43 PM »
My first assistant position was at a Nicklaus in NE Pennsylvania. Bent tees ,greens and fairways. Semi private. Expected good conditioning. Our shop was an old dairy barn on the property and I spent winters freezing my ass off on the floor with a torpedoe heater blowing on me doing all the mechanics work because we couldnt keep any mechanics through the winter because of the snow coming through the roof. Our budget was $450,00 a year and produced a great product and staying under budget.

The course I grew up playing in central pennsylvania is an old Ross next to a river. Its budget is $300,000 and the super there produces a decent product. But he really struggles to. He squeezes out every little penny from his budget. Neither of these course pay for water and are seasonal.

My number for a seasonal course would be in the $400 - $500K range depending on expectations and water.

My number for a year round course would be $800 - $900K range depending on expectations and water.


JK is again naive to think that the world revolves around bumf_ _k illinois. Of course you can pay some guy 13 - 35,000 a year when he only pays a $100 - $200 rent or mortgage on a $50,000 house. His numbers are nowhere close to being realistic for metropolitan areas and the supers that need to live there.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2008, 01:45:06 PM »

John's still bitter because they have to aerified the greens at Vic during the summer to help the remain healthy and remove organic matter. he questions EVERYTHING the superintendents does there, whos a really good supt.


I'm not quite that stupid.  I will say that yesterday Victoria was in the best playing condition of any course I have ever seen in the course of one day in my adult life.  Funny thing is that I hosted three guys who I had never met before because I over heard one of them saying they wish they hadn't missed the latest charity outing.  I think they would have blown me if that was my cup of tea.  Now that is a measure of a great superintendent.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2008, 01:56:01 PM »
Alright, here's my breakdown.......pick away at it as you like. I am by no means advocating it as the budget all courese should have, but when worse comes to worse, this might be what your average course could come down to:

Maintenance Schedule:

2 section guys - 1 per 9 holes to spend all day cutting cups, bunker maintenance, handwatering, general clean-up, trimming, weeding and edging
1 guy on the fairway mower - non-stop mowing means you can mow all fairways about twice a week
1 guy on the rough mower - same as fairways, non-stop gets you about two cuts per week (note - higher end courses tend to mow fairways and roughs at least 3 times a week)
1 guy to mow greens in the mornings with a triplex, then act as mechanic to do general and minimal machine repairs
1 guy to mow tees and approaches - would take all day to finish, two times a week, could use the other 3 days to assist mechanic or with other tasks
1 assistant to monitor the whole course and spray, mow, or help in general where needed
1 super to handle all things business related, make a plan, budget and schedule for the course, as well as do all the things the assistant does (spray and help in general)


Materials:

Cheapest decent fertilizer I know of is $1.28 per pound Nitrogen. Amount of N will vary depending on your grass type, but if most would do great with 4# N per 1000 sq ft per year, let's cut it 25% to 3# N per year, over 110 acres (fairways, tees, and rough) for a cost of around $18500. Add in greens ferts and other minimal ammendements and we'll call rock bottom: $20,000

Diesel to fuel the machines doing all the mowing, at around $3.50/gal, we'll call it $10000 per year.

Chemicals - to be used only for weed control and on a curative basis where needed to keep the grass alive - $10,000 reserve

Sand - needed at least for aerification, but also to supplement lost sand in bunkers, other light or spot topdressing applications - $10,000 per year

And around $20,000 in other expenses, such as equipment parts and supplies, course accesories only desperately in need of replacement (flags, markers, flagsticks), soil tests, contract services, etc.


Total Materials Budget: $70,000

Payroll: 6 greenskeepers at minimum wage ($8/hr) full time year-round golfing season, one assistant at $30,000 salary (need someone with experience and slight managerial skills to run the crew), one super at $50,000 salary (who can manage finances and most importantly be smart enough to be able to be creative with such a small budget and such a big task with high expectations).

Total Payroll: $180,000

Total Maintenance Budget: $250,000

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Anthony Gray

Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2008, 02:17:42 PM »

 


 I think they would have blown me if that was my cup of tea.  Now that is a measure of a great superintendent.


   JS,

  There is an obvious omission in your budget. How much would you budget a cup of tea for John?


 

Anthony Gray

Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2008, 02:54:48 PM »

 


 I think they would have blown me if that was my cup of tea.  Now that is a measure of a great superintendent.


   JS,

  There is an obvious omission in your budget. How much would you budget a cup of tea for John?


 


 And John only wants to pay the guy 35,000 a year!!!!



JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2008, 03:32:56 PM »
Anthony,

In all seriousness, the 50K I proposed is not far off from John's estimate of 35K for a SEASONAL super (9 mos/year) since the salary I mention is for a year-round position.

And while I will be the LAST to tell you that supers should be paid less (a good portion of us really derserve much more, if only people knew what was really involved in what we do and have to deal with), there are plenty of us who do the job, well and happily, for 50K or less. Heck, I'm a superintendent with a 4 year degree, 7 years of experience at a very nicely maintained and respected higher-end public course in CA and I barely get paid more than that. I still love my job and do the best that I can for this course. And am always looking for ways to do more with less.

Someday I'll probably need more than what I'm making now, to support a bigger family and cope with the increases we're all seeing, but for right now, I get what I get and it works for me and my family.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Anthony Gray

Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2008, 03:39:52 PM »



   JS,

  I live on a golf course. I get along better with the crew than I do with the members and I know they are under appreciated. One of my greatest joys is to help set the pins in the morning. The golf course is a wonderful office.




JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2008, 03:47:07 PM »
Anthony,

Great to hear you getting involved.

Regardless of what John says, rare is the superintendent who will say he does this job for the money. For myself and the overwhelming majority, we love the game, we love the outdoors and we care immensely for the environment and what we do it in to produce a beautiful place in which to play and enjoy the game.

If I wanted the money or the prestige of a more societal respectable title, I would have stuck with the Civil Engineering degree I started with in college for two years.

But then maybe I'd have to work with John.................
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Anthony Gray

Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2008, 03:52:35 PM »

But then maybe I'd have to work with John.................

  I think John would be great to golf with , but I am going to stay away from those 3 he golfs with.



Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2008, 04:02:24 PM »
Over here in Germany we are not allowed to mow the rough more than twice a year. Environmental regulations. So that save us one guy already. But apart from that, why should I pay an entire greenkeeper just to care for the rough? Folks, that is the place where no one has any business traipsing around in :)

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2008, 04:34:02 PM »
If I recall correctly, the GCSAA has a model or template GC maintenance budget document. 

I once participated in creating a prospectus for a common stock share offering to fund a golf club project.  We had a very detailed pro-forma based on our accountant's having done the books for a number of other golf courses in our area.  Skipping all the minutia of describing the line item projections of comparable costs in this area, we came up with 1993 dollars budget of 360K for the maintenance operation.  I guess that would look like about 600K in today's numbers.

But, because this is so variable to season, region, climate, soil types, design features and terrain variabilities, etc., it is really something of a futile exercise, IMO.

What really gets me laughing is these notions by fellows that probably make more that Obama's tax threshold and are soon due a raise in their income taxes... pontificating what a person at the bottom ought to make...  JK throwing out 35K for teachers as some sort of benchmark of fairness is a hoot.  Implying it is a seasonal job, and so forth is completely naive.  Just as thinking a super has a seasonal job, even in a northern Easter to Thanksgiving climate.  The work that is done in winter is often hard, tedious, and just as demanding.  Maybe the days are shorter than the 10-14 hours maintenance workdays 6-7 days a week of the playing season, but there is plenty work for super's to do in winter. 

Just as there is no such thing as an 8 hour day for teachers.  Hardly anyone that mocks teachers salaries has a clue about the hours everynight in prep of class lesson plans, correcting papers, and doing administrative reports that become more demanding each year it seems.  Not to mention the continuing education requirements every couple of summers to keep your certification to teach.  It begs the question of why anyone would want to go to college for what is now more like 5years to get an undergrad, to be on the bottom of the list to be hired with minimum of Bachelor degrees when so many Masters are available.  So they spend 100K or more for degree to get a 35K a year job, have pontificators judge that they have it so easy and begrudge them a living wage.   Like all teachers are expected to live like Hobbits or something.  What a joke...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2008, 04:48:26 PM »
Well said RJ,

Id like to reiterate his point about seasonal superintendents. Ive never seen one. Yes the golf course is seasonal but the super is still there everyday, along with his assistant and probably the mechanic. Winter is when all the peripheral tasks can be accomplished. Ive spent many a winter with a chainsaw and dragging logs in zero degree weather. Ive also spent many nights in the winter time plowing snow. In fact one snowy pennsylvania winter I couldnt make it home for christmas because I had to keep up with snow accumulation on the residences roads so they could get in and out. I worked for over 24 hours straight pumped up on dunkin donuts coffee. And I was on salary!!!! No overtime. Having done my time on the east coast, I dont look back at my winters spent there as a 4 month vacation laying around in my underwear watching sportscenter. Those winters were just as hard and trying than the summers were. The downfall to supers at courses that are open year round is that they never have the chance to really "catch up" because theyre always going 100 mph.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2008, 04:53:03 PM »
Dick,

If you go back you will see that I was defending teachers and even suggested that young people in the turf industry should consider getting their teacher certificate as it is a steady guaranteed job.  I know that in my world, and I would think yours, teachers are and have been some of the happiest golfers I have ever known.  Funny thing is, Cops and Postal workers are the grouchiest.

I will quickly rank the top 10 middle class occupations from happiest to grouchiest golfers...happiest at top.

Insurance Salesmen
Teachers
Bank Vice Presidents
Farmer
Construction Worker
Factory Shift Worker
Coal Miner
State Trooper
Local Cop
Postal Worker


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2008, 09:56:23 PM »
These could be two positives for 2009:
Lower oil prices should, in theory, lead to lower fertilizer prices
We could possibly get some immigration reform which would allow legal crews back into the USA.  2008 was really tough because many clubs couldn't get their Hispanic staff back after then went home over the winter.  And hiring illegals in 2008 was really dumb, as it could easily have lead to fines or even jail for the GM or super.

Scott Stambaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2008, 11:23:19 PM »


There is no reason in the world for any super to make over $35,000 per year in a seasonal climate with adequate support staff at around $10/hour down to minimum wage.

It's odd that your constant bashing of Superintendents continues to go unchallenged.  Maybe most (myself included) do not choose to waste their time or energy defending the profession to someone who has little respect for what we do.  As a Superintendent employed at a club in what would probably be considered the 90th percentile, it's difficult for me to comprehend the numbers you have attached to the value of a Superintendent.  It's quite embarrasing, actually. 

Anyway, I'm not here to argue- you're entitled to your opinion.  I'd like to do a role reversal on your scenario here and see if any architects/associates/shapers will chime in with their opinion-

How do you feel about the work of the golf course architect?  Are they worthy of $35,000/year?

How about their associates?  Are they worth $10/hour?  The equivalent of an Assistant Superintendent in your scenario.

How about a shaper?  Are they worthy of minimum wage?  The equivalent of staff members in your scenario.

Sounds absolutely ridiculous to me.  But somehow, it makes perfect sense to you when discussing the value of a Superintendent.


Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2008, 12:21:40 AM »
JS:

I play at a semi-private course in a resort community where the course is open from April 10th - Oct. 15th on average.  If I recall correctly from my time on the Grounds Committee our annual budget was in the neighborhood of $350,000 not including Cap Ex.  I would think bare bones for our particulars would be right on your number.
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Bottom Pricing
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2008, 12:37:33 AM »
There is no reason in the world for any super to make over $35,000 per year in a seasonal climate with adequate support staff at around $10/hour down to minimum wage.  It is also simple to find older members who will cut grass and this and that for reduced fees or free carts.

Mr Kavanaugh, I sincerely hope that you do not serve on any golf course committees as I cant imagine that any superintendent with any sort of passion and pride would last under your reign.

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