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Jason Topp

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #100 on: January 03, 2009, 01:31:40 AM »
Souther Dunes belongs on this list.

Matt_Ward

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2009, 11:34:06 AM »
Brian:

Interesting.

From my memory -- it appears Troon North has made a major adjustment -- I don't know if they spike rates right after the 1st of the New Year though.

Maybe others can comment.

Agree with you on Vista Verde -- great buy for what you get back.

Andy Troeger

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2009, 11:43:57 AM »
Matt,
I think that has to be an adjustment on Troon North's part. I played it last year I think in October and I believe it was fairly expensive as per their previous policy. They may realize that the level of their competition has risen, not to mention the obvious impact of the current economy.

Brian,
I played the Pinnacle at Troon North and felt the same way as you did about the Monument, including the pace of play.

Ryan Farrow

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2009, 12:02:36 PM »
Ditto the new layout at Troon North....


Also, i have never seen rates as low as they are now, not sure what these places will charge u w/o a discount now, but any of them for under 100 this time a year is unheard of.

Brian Joines

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2009, 01:15:28 PM »
Matt,

I think the rack rate is still $215.00 at Troon. I was kind of shocked at the $99.00 rate which is why we decided to head out there. In the end, it still wasn't that great of a deal.

Ryan,

Also, I checked in to Papago but it was $120 (I believe) for non-residents.  Not exactly the "great value" that I expected after reading this thread. I was in the area at the Botanical garden's Chihuly exhibit and stopped by Papago to take a peak. It looked like a pretty neat course but kind of packed in to a pretty tight piece of land. Is that accurate? Any idea on the acreage?  Hopefully I will get out there next time I'm in the area.


Matt_Ward

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2009, 03:53:50 PM »
Brian, et al:

I can't imagine facilities like Troon North being able to continue with the $215 rack rate.

On the other hand -- I'm still curious to know what they will charge for the remainder of the peak season - January through March.

Once facilities opt to go lower they run the risk in forever losing those same customers because they then expect such rates to be maintained in those time periods. Sometimes the rush to get players can be a slippery slope for them to overcome in such down times.

Clearly, if Troon North is opting to cut fees by more than 50% the spillover to other courses -- especially those further removed from the core Scottsdale area might be even more noticeable.

Ryan Farrow

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #106 on: January 03, 2009, 04:44:11 PM »
Matt,

I think the rack rate is still $215.00 at Troon. I was kind of shocked at the $99.00 rate which is why we decided to head out there. In the end, it still wasn't that great of a deal.

Ryan,

Also, I checked in to Papago but it was $120 (I believe) for non-residents.  Not exactly the "great value" that I expected after reading this thread. I was in the area at the Botanical garden's Chihuly exhibit and stopped by Papago to take a peak. It looked like a pretty neat course but kind of packed in to a pretty tight piece of land. Is that accurate? Any idea on the acreage?  Hopefully I will get out there next time I'm in the area.




Yes, that Papago rate went through the roof after the renovation, its still a great deal for residents. I think the acreage is pretty average, its a core golf course, so it could be less than some other development courses, I can guarantee you that it does not feel cramped, plenty of room between holes.


I'll have to check out that Chihuly exhibit, I saw the one in Pittsburgh at Phipps Conservatory last year. Doesn't hurt that the AZ botanical gardens are pretty neat just the way they are. Should be pretty interesting.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #107 on: January 03, 2009, 08:46:18 PM »
Good values in Phoenix:

• Coyote Lakes
• Coldwater
• Saguaro / Ft. McDowell (when available at a decent rate)
• Encanto / Phoenix Muni (Wm P. Bell; odd, but enjoyable)
• Adobe at Arizona Biltmore (when available at a decent rate)
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Matt_Ward

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #108 on: January 05, 2009, 12:12:25 PM »
Forrest:

I played a few of the ones you mentioned -- the issue is whether there is architecture elements there equal or greater than the price benefits you receive.

I don't see that being the case across the board -- no doubt the dropping of rates for the bulk of courses in and around the Valley area will mean an opening up of play for some of the ones that have already been mentioned.


Richard Boult

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2009, 11:58:46 PM »

Matt_Ward

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #110 on: January 08, 2009, 10:40:24 AM »
Art:

Thanks for taking the time to do this -- no doubt, course listings can be quite subjective but having info in one place where people can readily access does provide some value.


Andy Troeger

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #111 on: January 21, 2009, 10:58:34 PM »
I played Apache Stronghold and the Outlaw and Chiricahua courses at Desert Mountain last weekend and wanted to update some thoughts.

I don't have a ton to add on Apache Stronghold that hasn't already been said on this board. Its a fantastic design, one of the top five in the state IMO. The conditions are sub-par although perhaps improving. I'd still put it very high on the public listing in A, although the good private clubs that probably slip ahead of it with the conditioning issues IMO. You won't find better for $20 walking anywhere though.

On to Desert Mountain...
Outlaw is possibly the most unique course I've played in Arizona. Its not overseeded and the course plays very firm and fast and is a lot of fun. However, some of the slopes are VERY severe around the greens so the ball can roll a long ways in the wrong direction. Some of the greens are on high spots with fall offs on most sides which can be a little frustrating. It pushes the envelope--the question would be whether that's a good thing or not and I think one has to play it and make that determination for themselves. I think its a course that really requires multiple plays to have a prayer of scoring well. I would recommend it to GCA'ers and anyone that's a strong golfer, but higher handicaps may have more fun elsewhere. I can see how most members at Desert Mountain find it too severe, although the better players seem to like it. Its a players course. The 3rd, 5th, 8th, 13th, 14th, and 16th stood out to me as my favorite holes from one viewing.

Chiricahua is much more like some of the other private clubs in the area--overseeded, green, interaction with the desert, etc. Its a very fine golf course, especially the back nine (save perhaps the tee shot on the 15th). I really like the stretch of 10-12, and then the final three are very good as well. I would put it in my top 10 in the state, but not #1 like Matt. I think its fairly comparable (but a little behind) to The Estancia Club. Still highly recommended.

Scott Warren

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #112 on: September 27, 2009, 10:56:52 AM »
Interesting read, this thread.

A question: if someone wanted to play a desert course in Arizona - perferably near Phoenix on en route to Sedona or Flagstaff - and they were completely looking for a dramatic "desert" experience: lots of desert close to the playing corridors, cactus and boulders etc. that would be completely unlike what golf is like in Australia and the UK, what would you recommend?

Good GCA still being an important factor, but for the sake of the exercise, less crucial than the factors mentioned above.

Jason Topp

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #113 on: September 27, 2009, 06:24:54 PM »
Scott:

None of the courses will be like Australia, but I recommend you play one that is not yet surrounded by housing for the best desert experience.  Unfortunately for your itinerary the best courses tend to be northeast of Phoenix rather than northwest so you will need to drive a bit.  The terrain and the views are worth it.

Vista Verde
We-Ko Pa Saguaro
We Ko Pa Cholla

are all solid bets but check on the overseeding schedule with the course to make sure that they are not changing from summer to winter grass when you will be there.   

Talking Stick North is an interesting course but on dead flat land.  You should experience some rolling desert, and see Saguaros, road runners, jackrabbits and possibly javelina, coyotes or a rattle snake.




Tony Weiler

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #114 on: September 27, 2009, 10:25:08 PM »
Jason, good suggestions.  I really enjoyed all three of those courses. 

Damon Groves

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #115 on: September 27, 2009, 11:20:59 PM »
Scott:

None of the courses will be like Australia, but I recommend you play one that is not yet surrounded by housing for the best desert experience.  Unfortunately for your itinerary the best courses tend to be northeast of Phoenix rather than northwest so you will need to drive a bit.  The terrain and the views are worth it.

Vista Verde
We-Ko Pa Saguaro
We Ko Pa Cholla

are all solid bets but check on the overseeding schedule with the course to make sure that they are not changing from summer to winter grass when you will be there.   

Talking Stick North is an interesting course but on dead flat land.  You should experience some rolling desert, and see Saguaros, road runners, jackrabbits and possibly javelina, coyotes or a rattle snake.





Scott -

I agree with the above recommendations. All three are well worth it and will give you the experience you are looking for.

Brian Joines

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #116 on: September 27, 2009, 11:32:45 PM »
Since this thread, I've also played both Wekopa courses. I enjoyed them the most of all the courses I've played in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area. I particularly liked the Saguaro course. If you had time for just one round and wanted a "dramatic desert experience", Wekopa Saguaro  is the way to go.

Scott Warren

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #117 on: September 28, 2009, 02:51:45 AM »
Sweet, thanks guys. Wekopa looks awesome (and much cheaper than TPC Scotts and Troon Nth, to boot!).

Carl Nichols

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #118 on: September 28, 2009, 09:47:23 AM »
I'm a big fan of We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and highly recommend it (and have posted as much many times on here).  But if you're really looking for a traditional desert experience (i.e., a course that is a good example of what desert golf typically looks like), I'm not sure Saguaro is the best course to play -- among other things, it's significantly wider than your typical desert course.  That's one of the things that makes it good, IMHO, but you'll lose the (typical desert) experience of always worrying about hitting it into the desert! 

Scott, another option is Desert Forest, which does permit reciprocal/unaccompanied play if you make an inquiry.  It's a really cool place. 

Joel_Stewart

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #119 on: March 18, 2018, 09:04:48 PM »
This is an old thread that might be interesting to update.


I played the new course at Scottsdale National the other day (called the other course) and was wondering if anyone would put it the top or near the top of the best courses in Arizona?


Granted I’ve only played 10 or so courses there but would say it’s my favorite.

Jeff Schley

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #120 on: March 19, 2018, 05:52:47 AM »
This is an old thread that might be interesting to update.


I played the new course at Scottsdale National the other day (called the other course) and was wondering if anyone would put it the top or near the top of the best courses in Arizona?


Granted I’ve only played 10 or so courses there but would say it’s my favorite.

Cool.  How did you like it?  What kind of rating would you give it?  Very secretive course with Parsons wanting it to be an exclusive out of state member retreat for them and guests.  Did you play the Bad Ass Nine or whatever they call it as well?

Also to this thread has Desert Mountain maintained itself over the last 10 years or slipped?  I have never played any of them, but a good friend of mine family lived there for a few years and he always raved about the conditioning and how hard Geronimo was gold to gold.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #121 on: March 19, 2018, 01:27:09 PM »
Joel,


I'm not connected enough to have played either of the 2 courses at Scottsdale National or even their  " Bad Little Nine" so let's get this thread started again without Matt Ward.
Here's GD's lists:


Best Residential CoursesEstancia (p) The Rim (p) Forest Highlands – The Canyon (p) Stone Canyon (p) Quintero (df, p) Ritz-Carlton GC Dove Mountain Saquaro & Tortolita (p, r)Desert Highlands (p)Troon G&CC (p)Mirabel (p)Forest Highlands – The Meadow (p)Wickenburg Ranch (df)Pine Canyon Club (p)Silverleaf (p)Desert Mountain – Chiricahua (p)The Gallery – North (p)The Gallery – South (p)Troon North – Monument (df)Seven Canyons (p)Superstition Mountain – Lost Gold (p)Desert Mountain – Geronimo (p)
Best Resort Courses
We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro), Fountain Hills Ritz-Carlton GC at Dove Mountain (Saguaro & Tortolita) MaranaTroon North (Monument)   ScottsdaleAk-Chin Southern Dunes, MaricopaTroon North (Pinnacle), ScottsdaleWe-Ko-Pa (Cholla), Fountain Hills Ventana Canyon (Mountain), TucsonBoulders Resort (South), CarefreeLa Paloma (Ridge/Canyon) TucsonVentana Canyon (Canyon), Tucson


Here's GW's list of Best Daily Fee courses:

1. We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)Fountain Hills (m)2. Ritz-Carlton Golf Club at Dove Mountain (Saguaro/Tortolita) Marana (m)3. Quintero Peoria (m)4. Verrado Buckeye (m)5. Wickenburg Ranch Wickenburg (m)6. TPC Scottsdale (Stadium)Scottsdale (m)7. Troon North (Monument)Scottsdale (m)8. Troon North (Pinnacle)Scottsdale (m)9. Ak-Chin Southern Dunes Maricopa (m)10. We-Ko-Pa (Cholla)Fountain Hills (m)11. Ventana Canyon (Mountain)Tucson (m)12. Boulders Resort (North)Carefree (m)13. Boulders Resort (South)Carefree (m)14. Grayhawk (Raptor)Scottsdale (m)15. La Paloma (Ridge/Canyon)Tucson (m)16. Apache Stronghold San Carlos (m)17. Laughlin Ranch Bullhead City (m)18. Sewailo Tucson (m)19. Grayhawk (Talon)Scottsdale (m)20. Ventana Canyon (Canyon)Tucson (m)21. Talking Stick (North)Scottsdale (m)22. Gold Canyon Golf Resort (Dinosaur Mountain)Gold Canyon (m)23. SunRidge Canyon Fountain Hills (m)24. Wigwam Golf Club (Gold)Litchfield Park (m)25. Camelback (Ambiente)Scottsdale (m)26. Los CaballerosWickenburg (m)27. Papago MunicipalPhoenix (m)28. Legacy Golf Resort Phoenix (m)29. Starr Pass Tucson (m)30. Whirlwind Golf Club (Cattail)Chandler (m)



Apache Stronghold should be eliminated from any list because of continuing conditioning problems.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 01:52:26 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #122 on: March 19, 2018, 01:53:09 PM »
Here's GD's Best in State:


1 . (1)]The Estancia Club, Scottsdale •2. (2) Forest Highlands G.C. (Canyon), Flagstaff ≈3. (4) The Stone Canyon Club, Oro Valley ≈4. (3) Whisper Rock G.C. (Upper), Scottsdale ≈5. (6) Whisper Rock G.C. (Lower), Scottsdale ≈6. (5) Pine Canyon Club, Flagstaff7. (7) Desert Highlands G.C., Scottsdale ≈8. ( Forest Highlands G.C. (Meadow), Flagstaff9. (12) Desert Forest G.C., Carefree ≈10. (10) Desert Mountain Club (Chiricahua), Scottsdale11. (11) Silverleaf Club, North Scottsdale12. (9) The Rim G.C., Payson13. (18) Desert Mountain Club (Geronimo), Scottsdale14. (17) Scottsdale National G.C. (Mineshaft), Scottsdale15. (19) Quintero G.C., Peoria ^16. (14) Mirabel G.C., Scottsdale17. (16) Desert Mountain Club (Renegade), Scottsdale18. (13) Troon C.C., Scottsdale19. (21) We-Ko-Pa G.C. (Saguaro), Fort Mcdowell ^20. (22) The G.C. At Chaparral Pines, Payson21. (New) Wickenburg Ranch G. & Social C. (Big Wick), Wickenburg ★22. (New) TPC Scottsdale (Stadium), Scottsdale ★23. (20) The Club At Seven Canyons, Sedona24. (25) Ritz-Carlton G.C. At Dove Mountain (Saguaro/Tortolita), Marana ★25. (24) Troon North G.C. (Monument), Scottsdale
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 02:16:27 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dave Givnish

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #123 on: March 19, 2018, 06:15:24 PM »
Courses that should rate higher in this mix IMHO -


Whisper Rock Lower
Desert Mountain Chircahua
We-ko-pa Saguaro
Wickenburg Ranch


Courses that should be lower
Pine Canyon
Chaparral Pines
TPC Stadium
Quintero

Joel_Stewart

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #124 on: March 19, 2018, 08:33:56 PM »
Here's GD's Best in State:


1 . (1)]The Estancia Club, Scottsdale •2. (2) Forest Highlands G.C. (Canyon), Flagstaff ≈3. (4) The Stone Canyon Club, Oro Valley ≈4. (3) Whisper Rock G.C. (Upper), Scottsdale ≈5. (6) Whisper Rock G.C. (Lower), Scottsdale ≈6. (5) Pine Canyon Club, Flagstaff7. (7) Desert Highlands G.C., Scottsdale ≈8. ( Forest Highlands G.C. (Meadow), Flagstaff9. (12) Desert Forest G.C., Carefree ≈10. (10) Desert Mountain Club (Chiricahua), Scottsdale11. (11) Silverleaf Club, North Scottsdale12. (9) The Rim G.C., Payson13. (18) Desert Mountain Club (Geronimo), Scottsdale14. (17) Scottsdale National G.C. (Mineshaft), Scottsdale15. (19) Quintero G.C., Peoria ^16. (14) Mirabel G.C., Scottsdale17. (16) Desert Mountain Club (Renegade), Scottsdale18. (13) Troon C.C., Scottsdale19. (21) We-Ko-Pa G.C. (Saguaro), Fort Mcdowell ^20. (22) The G.C. At Chaparral Pines, Payson21. (New) Wickenburg Ranch G. & Social C. (Big Wick), Wickenburg ★22. (New) TPC Scottsdale (Stadium), Scottsdale ★23. (20) The Club At Seven Canyons, Sedona24. (25) Ritz-Carlton G.C. At Dove Mountain (Saguaro/Tortolita), Marana ★25. (24) Troon North G.C. (Monument), Scottsdale


Interesting list.  Apparently Ron Whitten visited a few weeks ago, shot 110 and pleaded with Parsons to open it up to panelists. That was rejected.


Based on this list, IMHO "The other course" would rank #1.  It's far superior to Estancia. There are no homes although a few member villas are under construction as well as Parsons personal home which is mainly hidden. It has a 6-6-6 setup with the par 3s outstanding. We played it at 6,777 yards but the back tees go to 7,165.


The Bad Little Nine is a hoot. Holes run from 88 yards to 153. The greens are large with some very unusual undulations. A few greens have very small shelves that are about 10x10 which would make for near impossible pin spots. On Fridays they put the pin on those locations and apparently play member games.


The clubhouse is outstanding. It's a one story adobe Indian style with tile. Under construction is a large complex home to PXG. I have no doubt it will be a high tech oasis for club fitting and practice by the PGA tour players.


Kudos to the architectural team of Jackson Kahn who are very inovative yet fair. Also Pinnacle golf design and Ken Alperstein for the Landscape architecture which is amazing considering this site was primarily flattened by Lyle Anderson before Bob Parsons purchased it.