[Tom Naccarato]

When I read of Golf Architecture In America, I feel like I'm reading as about as in depth of a design and construction book imaginable. It's like a instruction manual how to look for strategy in natural situations; as well as creating it when needed.

From the looks of it, Thomas freely engaged in discussion with numerous great architects and even builders on the subject. he was never afraid to give credit where credit was due. His book wasn't so much a promtional tool as it was a passionate observation on the art of golf courses. He unselfishly used many other architect's works to show his points--never once being critical, but more admirable. What an selfless effort!

Personally, and I'm partial, I don't think I've ever come across a Thomas hole that I didn't like or didn't look upon in awe of what once existed, and trust me when I say this: all of his harmed works show the greatness from another time where Sportsmanship played the most important part in the Sport. I instantly think of Ojai, Bel Air and La Cumbre.

Stealing from a question Ran once asked about the Fownes: How did George Thomas get so much right?? and, if some of you have been fortunate, what holes have captured, for you, the Thomas spirit? (Anyone that obviously mentions #10 at the Riv is automatically disqualified, because we all ready know that it is one of the greatest par 4's in the Sport!)

Cheers

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:

I admire George Thomas' writing and work a lot, but if he was really the best ever, why did so little of his work survive?  Are Californians just stupid? 

[Tom Naccarato]

Tom, Where did I say best ever? I don't think there is a best ever. I think all of them had their positives that far outweighed any negatives, but you know, I'm partial and I'm biased. I have no problem admitting it!

Yes, Californians are stupid, just like some of the members at Augusta can be stupid and so on and so forth. The problem is with California, we simply didn't get it after the depression and then the 2nd World War. In came the age of mass development and trendsetting. The weather and the lifestyle had everything to do with it.

[Ian Larson]

My first golf architecture book was given to me by my college girlfriend in 1996. It was Thomas' Golf architecture In America. Funny thing was that my second book was Tom's Anatomy of a Golf Course.

My Thomas book is so worn out because I just love going back and reading it over and over and over. In fact that book along with The Captain were my inspirations to make the move out west to work at Riviera and later LACC. And it was great to actually put the book to some use while working there during the first phase of renovations at Riv.

Am I disqualified for using any Riviera holes Tommy?   I love #4 at Riviera into the wind, I have a huge 5' x 5' painting of it in my office. Theres something about standing on that tee and only being able to see a slither of the green between 2 mounds that the front bunker create, I also am in love with that front bunkers shaping. Theres something sexy and deceiving about it.

[JESII]

Tommy,

I'm curious about George Thomas, and have lived most of my life within 15 miles of his first course.

Knowledge and humility are fine, and important, but what about what he put in the ground?

I haven't played his others, and do not know what Whitemarsh Valley looks like today as opposed to what he left in the ground, but the course is good, but does not have many holes that make you stop and just want to study...

[Tom Naccarato]

Riviera holes are freely accepted here. honestly, they are holding on for dear life, whats left of them!

Sully, I'm not sure how much of Whitemarsh is left myself, other then I've heard from an authority on Thomas who said, not much.
A simple walk around Bel Air would tell you that his stuff was that of genius. At least for me. All of it natural and fun, sporty to a tee. The ground game--playing off the sides of hills, as well as intelligent "tacking" is evident. Sadly in todays sport and with much of today's agronomony, this is a lost feature. Still evident though!

[Tom Naccarato]

Sully, actually thinking about it, that was his first 18 hole course. The first course was actually that little 9-holer, Marion, on the way into Kittansett.

[JESII]

Maybe this downturn will turn off the sprinklers a little bit...even at the expense of GREEN

Look forward to seeing his real work...after all, he's a Philly guy.

[Tom Naccarato]

Yes, but you would have to get rid of a lot of Kikuyu also.

Lately though, I've played a lot of courses this year where Kikuyu has taken over and they have played surprisingly fast & firm. It isn't always that way, but it was sort of surprising!

Santa Anita and Recreation Park for example!

Look forward to seeing his real work...after all, he's a Philly guy.

One of the best of the Philly guys!

[JESII]

I haven't played much on Kikuyu, but I am a believer that grass is really tough (Kikuyu, obviously...) and will find a way to stay alive if we just turn off the water.

Inland here, just North of Philly, we do not get high, or predictable winds, but when the ball gets bouncing on sharply sloping ground it has a very similar effect. Let's turn off the water.

Whitemarsh Valley could/would be a great, great golf course if the firmness of the greens that George Thomas envisioned were still there.

They haven't moved any greens, have they???

[Neil_Crafter]

Ian
I hope you married that girlfriend! Any girl who would give you a copy of that book as a present is definitely a keeper.

[Jon Spaulding]

Exemplary Thomas holes, currently in play, in no particular order other than numerically within the course:

3,10,16,17 LA North (#17 is about as good of an example as I have seen)
3, 4, 5, 9, 15,18 Riviera
_____ Bel Air (thank you Fabio)

Too many to mention not currently in play.

[Ryan Farrow]

o....... such a great subject. I would have to put his book at the top of my list, as well as #4 at Riviera. Tom brings up a good point, but he obviously knows the answer to his own question. Or at least he knows his work has not survived because of reasons other than its greatness. It bugs me that modern architects pass on restoring his work, possibly thinking they can do better? Naive, maybe, stupid.... more than likely.



(welcome back Tommy)

[Ian Larson]

What do guys think of 11 North at LACC?

[Tom Naccarato]

Thanks Ryan!

What do I think of LACC#11, well, lets analyze it a bit.

No one is to blame John Harbottle for the inept bunkering on this hole; that was there B.H. (Before Harbottle) It simply looks out of place. almost upside down.

The hole was supposed to play as both a short par 4 and long 3. Over time, the green has substantially shrunk. Currently, the green doesn't go out nearly far enough to the right. It just sort of stops way short. i know this from looking at a lot of different photos, as well as numerous aerials, thus producing a pin even more daunting to the back right. the hole, thanks to modern green irrigation practices doesn't nearly run as fast & firm as it should. the kind of bounce one should get there is one of those velvety, bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce with lots of spring. Not high spring, but snappy spring. (if you know what I mean) Fully utilizing the reverse-Redan (Nader) feature of the hole. Right now, from memory, it's about 185 yards downhill isn't it? I know I hit a five wood there, the times I've played there and one time--the first time it made a bolt to the green, only it wasn't quite enough to make it. Just an itty-bitty more F&F and the ball would have bounced on, but nowhere near a back right pin, which tells me that the grass has been over-irrigated over time.

I think its about a solid as a hole can get if its agronomically in shape....

Plus the view of Downtown is pretty cool too!

[Sean_A]

I haven't played much on Kikuyu, but I am a believer that grass is really tough (Kikuyu, obviously...) and will find a way to stay alive if we just turn off the water.

Cha-ching!  Sully, so far as I am concerned, grass is a fancy name for a weed. 

I must say just based on writings, Thomas strikes me as the most imaginative and when I look at the old pix they are rarely short of inspiring.  Unfortunately, California is a loooong ways and a lot of grovelling from Worcestershire.

Ciao 

[Brad Klein]

Next Wednesday, Oct. 29, 11:30 a.m., George C. Thomas Gr. gets inducted into the Southern California Golf Association Hall of Fame.

In preparation for my brief comments there upon the occasion of the honor being bestowed upon Thomas, I'm now starting to re-read his book (probably for the 3rd or 4th time). It is every bit as magical and enchanting, well-written, perceptive and uncluttered, as I remember it from my first read 30 years ago. Between the text and the vivid illustrations, it is the single most lucid and compelling detailed account of architecture ever published. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Tommy,

I'm curious about George Thomas, and have lived most of my life within 15 miles of his first course.

Knowledge and humility are fine, and important, but what about what he put in the ground?

I haven't played his others, and do not know what Whitemarsh Valley looks like today as opposed to what he left in the ground, but the course is good, but does not have many holes that make you stop and just want to study...

JES
As Tommy pointed out his first course was Marion GC just off Cape Cod. Its my impression the Thomas's involvement at Whitemarsh was relatively minor. It was obviously an important experience for him, to assist Heebner et al, but I don't believe it would accurate to call that course his design. There was also a major redesign by Ross at some point.

Tommy
Thomas was around a hell of lot of golf architects and men interested in golf architecture, for many years, and his book credits all of them from Heebner to Fowler and everyone in between. One thing I don't think he mentioned as an influence was California. It seems to me, for whatever reason, California seem to bring out the best in these architects, allowing them to release their creative juices (that was true with other disciplines as well).

[Peter Pallotta]

Tommy -

A sidebar if you don't mind. It strikes me that California in those early days must've offered the east-coast guys a great sense of SPACE - both physical space and, with it, psychic and creative space.   If they arrived there with talent (like Behr and Mackenzie and Thomas etc did) they found freshening sea-side air and a blanker canvas that let those talents breathe more and expand without as many boundaries (physical or psychic/creative). Maybe that talent -- removed from the east-coast's ultra competitive tournament golf scene -- was less constrained by the need to build "championship" tests/golf courses. (Did you describe golf out there as a sport for that reason?) And maybe too, being 3000 miles further away from the great British links courses than Long Island was, the California guys could more easily honour the strategy of those great courses without getting so hung up on the form.  Also, while New York was a city that never slept, you couldn't play golf 365 days a year there; maybe getting to California they felt a little like guys building hockey rinks in the North Pole -- i.e. open it up boys, cause this is exactly where the sport should be played.   

Peter 

[wsmorrison]

As Tommy pointed out his first course was Marion GC just off Cape Cod. Its my impression the Thomas's involvement at Whitemarsh was relatively minor. It was obviously an important experience for him, to assist Heebner et al, but I don't believe it would accurate to call that course his design. There was also a major redesign by Ross at some point.

What was Donald Ross's major redesign?  When did it take place?  Brad Klein believes Ross worked at WVCC in 1930.  A 1927 aerial (prior to Ross?) compared to a 1937 aerial indicates that if Ross only worked at WVCC in 1930, he did very little.  We have his hole drawings for the 2nd, 11th and 18th.  It appears that parts of those holes resemble the Ross plans, but not the green complexes.  Do you know how much work William Flynn did at WVCC?  I think it was substantially more than Ross.  Have you seen Flynn's routing plans and single hole drawing for HVCC, apparently to make changes for the Women's Amateur?

I believe much of the original golf course, as designed by Thomas or by some coalition of men, was left intact by Ross and to a lesser degree by Flynn.

What information do you have that would lead you to state that Ross did a major redesign?  Should we simply take you at your word or can you prove what you state with such certainty?  I don't think evidence exists to support your claim.  If it does, I sure would like to see it.  But since I am a FOTP (Friend of Tom Paul) I am sure you will use that as a means to hide from offering proof.  Perhaps you wouldn't mind going to the club itself and offering evidence of your claim.  They would be glad to know that Thomas was not the main man in the original design and also that they are now playing on a course that was significantly redesigned by Ross.  And of course you make no mention of Flynn.  

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy, it is so sad to go out to LaCumbre when I'm in Santa Barbara, and get to the current #13 and see that misbegotten piece of seagull guano island out in the lake - the alternate green.  It is so shocking to see.  Sadly today's members don't really care one way or another.

We played our college golf at LaCumbre and it was much different.  No kikuyu, the ravine/barranca cut in more in front of the (current) #8 green.  The old #17 (par 3 between old #16 - current #8 - and old #18 - current #9) was already gone.  It must have been a beautiful thing across the barranca that eventually collapsed and lost the hole.

There are many things to love about LaCumbre in its current state.  The routing is interesting although choked by surrounding homes in some places.  It's an easy walk although the rope tow up the steep incline from current #18 to the clubhouse is a welcome assist.

It's funny - the current #1 is a great first hole right in front of the clubhouse with the elevated tee and great hang time on the tee ball.  The current #2 returns to the clubhouse so I always figured it was the original since that is a Thomas trademark.

But apparently the first hole in the original routing was the current #10, a short par 5 that dives off the cliff with another super elevated tee ball.  I guess #11 today didn't exist then as there was the old #17 par 3 that NLE.   You got into the holes around the lake, that are now on the back nine, a lot sooner.  The cape tee shot on current #12 would have been #2 then, and it is good to have the shoulder turn under control when standing on that tee today when you are well warmed up.  Old #3 is a top 100 par 3, 239 yards across a corner of the lake.  Ignore the island.  Then comes a dogleg left around the lake where a tee ball over a giant willow on the corner cuts off 50 yards if you have los cojones.

So I prefer the current routing as those to me are better back nine holes. 

The kikuyu sucks, there's nothing else you can say about it.  No ground game shots are possible, on a course designed in the Classic era and loaded with ground game opportunities.  The lob wedge gets a heavy work out.

But I still love it.  It's like your favorite uncle who has a lot of bad habits but you still love him because you remember when he didn't smell so bad and you've seen photos of what a heartbreaker he was when he was just a kid.  

What they've done to Ojai is worse, sad as that is.  The new (again) routing just sucks the wind out of that course.

[Carl Rogers]

There are overarching societal /  marketplace issues to Thomas and others in comparison to things today.

Back in the day
-they worked on fewer projects at a time and thus had to spend more time on each project
-the construction process was much slower and thus more opportunity for adjustment as they went along
-a smaller overall population meant large amounts of undeveloped land to choose the best golf property
-the permitting process was simpler or non-existent
-the financing process was simpler

just fewer straightjackets

[Thomas MacWood]

I believe Ross redesigned Whitemarsh in 1919 or 1920. As far the details I know it was reported in the Philly newspapers - you could probably look it up. Joe probably has it. Ross listed Whitemarsh in his pamphlet of designs and major redesigns.

[Mike Hendren]

Tommy (welcome back btw),

I too have enjoyed his book immensely, evening posting George C. Thomas quotes of the day here a few years back.   I have not had the fortune of playing or seeing any of his work, but his writing gives the impression of a pretty eccentric fellow, with solid architectural tenets juxtaposed with totally outrageous concepts - gotta love those fairtees!

Am I correct in recalling that he never took a fee for his services?

Mike

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tommy:

This is a very good questions from a very smart man.

I really wonder how good he was early in his career. Very little of what Thomas did at Whitemarsh Valley is left. The famous 9th green, which is pictured in the book, was redesigned by a club member named Deming. Thomas acknowledges that in the photo credit.

What I'm amazed about in going through the book is the breadth of courses and designers he acknowledges. There is a drawing of Kittansett (Flynn), which is on the same road as his first design, Marion (Mass.) Golf Course; photo of St. Louis (Macdonald); Ross drawings, photos of courses in Canada and Maine. He seemed an astute student of the craft. He played at Essex County (Mass.) and Myopia so he must have known Herbert Leeds.

Anthony

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