[Matt_Ward]

I was shaking my head with amusement when I reviewed the Golf World reader's listing when the top 50 public facilities were listed and although Paa-Ko Ridge was rated quite highly (3rd) -- there was no mentioning of Black Mesa within the top 50 and the facilities at the greater Santa Fe facility are no less that of what you get at Paa-Ko Ridge which was rated inside the top 5.

I did notice a few metro NYC area courses mentioned and some were stretching things with the inclusion of Centennial from NY and Scotland Run in the southern portion of NJ. Again, they do offer some unique elements but not at that high a level.

What's even more amusing is not one public course from Colorado finished within the top 50 - hard to believe that given the quality of public golf found in the state.

I am aware that different elements were thrown into the picture but the reader's were certainly out in deep left field in my mind.

I've got to also mention Hidden Creek was listed as the #3 private layout in the USA -- also included were Metedeconk National and Pine Hill along with Baltusrol and Bayonne. Just have to wonder how other more notable private clubs were simply left out from the state because at least three of the ones they mentioned would not make my top of the charts listing not because they are not good clubs but that a few others are even better. For example, Montclair GC, Forsgate and Essex County were even listed among the top 15 for NJ.

I'm sure if I spent additional time reviewing what's been listed I am sure other oddities can be added from the different states.

Frankly, reader polls are like asking the man on the street about his opinions on any topic. No doubt you'll get opinions but rarely do you get ones that are truly informed.

I'm sure others will have their own thoughts given that this board is a good bit beyond the level of those who paritcipated.

[Ian Larson]

Its a readers poll, you gotta take it for what it is. Its not meant to be a poll by the totally informed and architecturally elite. I look at them as an insight to what the average guy likes.

[Andy Troeger]

If you go to the website you will notice there are 11 categories--quality of the golf course is only ONE of them. This list has basically nothing to do with architecture.

If you're including value and amenities and all that kind of stuff I can see Paa-Ko Ridge doing very well. Its one of the best values I've seen, and does well (with good reason) in most of the other categories on this survey. I think it provides as good of an "experience" as Arcadia Bluffs (#7) and better than Longaberger (#4).

Black Mesa is a notable exception, but its pretty no-frills when compared to the places on this list. Its a wonderful value and golf course, but that's not entirely what this list is about.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I noticed the 11 categories you mentioned prior to my posting.

They can dress it up anyway they like -- if Paa-Ko Ridge is rated #3 in the USA and Black Mesa doesn't even sniff the top 50 then something is big time wrong.

Paa-Ko Ridge doesn't have anything in abundance over Black Mesa and you can throw any category forward. When you say BM is "pretty no frills" - I disagree big time. There's as much at BM as what you find at Paa-Ko Ridge -- even more so. The value side of the equation rests with BM and I'd be happy to go down any of the other elements for comparison purposes.

Ian:

Magazines that elevate readers list to something of information of quality are really wasting their time and those who still take the magazine somewhat seriously.

The average Joe who plays golf is the same guy who thinks McDonald's makes a top shelf burger.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
This list shows very well what the readers of Golf World want to see in their golf courses. Obviously you aren't the type of person who reads Golf World and participates in their surveys 

I've told you before that most folks in New Mexico like Paa-Ko Ridge better--the friends I had out earlier this month liked Paa-Ko Ridge a smidge better (although they liked both courses a lot). Before you dismiss them, the one fellow has played all over the world and knows a fair bit about architecture.

We all know your opinion, (and I'm sure you'll repeat it again just in case). Just don't be so surprised that you're in the minority. Black Mesa is underappreciated...

[Ian Larson]

Matt,

So the guy that only eats a burger from Father's Office with sweet potatoe fries washed down with a nice Chimay Blue can have an opinion on the different burgers? Everyones opinions count. Hell! I love getting a Double Quarter Pounder from the drive-thru. Does that discount my opinion on burgers?

With the state of golf and the market, I would value everybodies opinion about what they like in a golf course and their golf experience.
McDonalds and Fathers Office.

[Matt_Ward]

Ian:

The issue is not about people having opinions -- the issue is whether a publication of stature should think that printing such info (shall I dare call it that) is somehow advancing the understanding of what calls itself quality golf here in the USA.

If you watch Leno and when he does his "Jay Walking" bit you get a real good idea of how little the average Joe and Jane understand what's happening on just about anything. For the first few people you watch make idiots of themselves you get a really good belly laugh -- then after a few more you shake your head and wonder how such people actually function.

I don't value publications that use the lowest threshold of info as the bases for being placed in such a magazine. If that floats your boat so be it for you.

By the way I love double burgers too -- I just know they don't belong in anything resembling a magazine of real standing when food is discussed.

Andy:

I've been reading Golf World going back to the times when Dick Taylor was at the helm. Under his guidance the magazine was a bit more aware of what it needed to communicate to those who really value golf.

Andy, you keep saying "most folks" prefer Paa-Ko Ridge. C'mon, please, what you mean is the people you have talked to. I can name an equal and even greater number of people who see it the other way.

When you mention about the guy who has done his fair share of traveling --I'd be happy to disuss and line up any argument that anyone can make that says Paa-Ko Ridge is the better overall course when held against Black Mesa.

I fully realize Black Mesa is underappreciated -- keep in mind Golf World through its survey left out all of Colorado from the public listing and a number of other notable layouts -- Wild Horse has plenty to offer and didn't sniff a spot either. Too much of the Myrtle Beach area is included and that tells me plenty on where people are coming from in terms of their overall understanding. Just feed these same people plenty of wings and strip clubs and they'll bite on anything that has 18 holes.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Its not an argument. These folks have every right to enjoy a round at Paa-Ko Ridge more than a round at Black Mesa. Its not a matter of being right or wrong when you're dealing with two strong courses. EVERY major publication rates Paa-Ko higher, so you can "argue" until you are blue in the face, some folks obviously disagree.

[Bill_McBride]

Speaking of Pa'ako Ridge, I was there in May and was thoroughly underwhelmed by the new third nine.  We played nines 2 and 3 (old back nine first and then new third nine), no contest.  I missed the front nine which I thought started with a run of very strong holes.

Black Mesa to me is still a definite cut above.

[Andy Troeger]

Bill,
I totally agree regarding the third nine compared to the first two. It makes a big difference to me to play 1-18 and even in that order, partially because the beginning of the opening nine is a bit easier than the rest of the course.

[JLahrman]

There are plenty of other rankings done by the so-called-experts that draw critcism as well.

I don't value publications that use the lowest threshold of info as the bases for being placed in such a magazine. If that floats your boat so be it for you.

The lowest threshold of info here is the opinion of the readers of the magazine...if you don't value the publication then why read it?  I mean look at the poor schlumps that you're associating with.  Even further, why start threads about it?

If nothing else, at least you can see the gap between the proletariats and the bourgeoisie...

[Matt_Ward]

JAL:

I was given the info by others who wanted to know my comments. Simple as that.

If I care to start a thread about it - that's my prerogative. You can simply avoid it.

If you can understand the evolution of Golf World -- there was a time under its original editor and founder Dick Taylor when course info was a bit more informative than simply to ask Joe and Jane Sixpacks.

[Mike Hendren]

If you can understand the evolution of Golf World -- there was a time under its original editor and founder Dick Taylor when course info was a bit more informative than simply to ask Joe and Jane Sixpacks.

Matt,

FYI, at this month's meeting of the Joe and Jane Sixpacks club, we voted to change our name to "The Juicy Fruit Crowd."  I hope you and your fellow reknowned national mainstream media types will henceforth refer to us accordingly.

Thank you.

Bogey

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

The tag only applies to those who willingly wish to apply it to themselves.

I guess I'm getting old because it just seems that issues of top tier golf mags was a bit
more selective and clearly informative when matters of courses was discussed.

Thanks for sharing the new designation of the "Juicy Fruit Crowd."

[JLahrman]

So your beef is more with Golf World for your perception that their standards have slipped rather than with the rankings that the golfers have.  I'm all for the discussion, I'm just not sure why you would start a thread to give more attention to rankings that you discredit.

For any most any passion it seems there is the general fan's opinion, and then there is the upper 1% or 5% who take things more seriously and discount the general fans' opinions.  Wine, model trains, literature, music, Scrabble (anybody watched Word Wars?) etc.  This dichotomy will always exist.  Maybe Golf World could appeal to the upper crust but how many magazines are they going to sell?  As has been repeated on here, the typical golfer is more interested in how green the grass is and how hot the cart girls are than how strategic the greenside bunker are.

[Matt_Ward]

JAL:

It's a bit of both.

I would hope that the folks running Golf World would review some of their past stuff from years ago. They would begin to see the elements I mentioned as a critique of what they provided on this score. The Dick Taylor era is a good avenue to get a better understanding of what I mean.

I see magazines as a source that tells me elements I may not know -- to go a bit further than just simply copping out and getting the "man on the street" take. Far too many times the "man on the street" assessment is limited because they have had little exposure to a broader range of what is out there.

If you can access past issues from years ago -- not just Golf World but old Golf Digest issues you will see what I mention. Unfortunately, too much effort from the top tier mags are driving their editorial calendar for other reasons.

[John Kavanaugh]

Matt,

Yesterday I took some blue collar guys out golfing who don't get much of a chance to play highly ranked courses.  We even exchanged some stories about Kings North and the wonders of the Gambler hole.  What they said earlier as compliment would be a sophisticated slam few intellectuals could ever muster.  One guy said to me.."The only thing this course is missing is an island fairway."  That being said, my question is:  When I asked them what they wanted to drink before the round, they out of courtesy asked me what I was having.  I of course ordered the obligatory double Makers Mark and diet heavy on the double.  They in turn requested Jack and Coke.  So, is Makers a sign of my refined palate or could it be that Jack is the better beverage?  Why do you think someone would choose Jack over Makers when the seal was open and the bottle in hand.  Who is wrong and who is right?

[Jason McNamara]

John,

The top 1 to 5% mentioned a couple posts above will tell you that anyone who mixes Maker's with anything is wrong.

[Cliff Hamm]

For all of the criticism of the list Tobacco Road is ranked #5 public.  This particular course is constantly underrated and subsequently there is an outcry on this site.  While this one is far, far from perfect I certainly give it credit for giving TR its due.

[John Moore II]

Cliff--Funny you should post about Tobacco Road, I was about to do the same thing, only exaclty opposite of you. Tobacco Road is in no way shape or form the #5 public course in the country. It is a pretty good golf course, better than most I will say, but it has no other amenities. I am not sure I would say its the 5th best public course in North Carolina. And Legacy at #25? Someone is smoking some good stuff on that one, please share with me. Legacy, again, is not top 25 in my own state, let alone the nation. Oh well, some people see things differently.

[Cliff Hamm]

John...my basic point is that rankings are quite individual.  What I like, may not be what you like.  This is a perfect example.

As to TR I loved it.  Most on this site have felt that it never gets the attention it deserves.  Whether it is #5 public in the country is highly debatable, but I do think it belongs in the top 100 and never gets close.

As to amenities or lack thereof, I love that TR has basically none.  The clubhouse and its setting are great in my opinion.  Again, the point being, that rankings are quite individual and will always be controversial for that reason.

[Rob Rigg]

The appreciation for wine and golf courses is incredibly similar.

There are those who drink great juice consistently and can discern the small nuances on the nose, across the palate and in the finish. This group will not always agree on a wine, or pick the same in a blind tasting but a certain amount of respect usually exists amongst the group as they split hairs in heated debates(sound similar???)

There is another group that loves wine but does not have the funds to drink the good stuff all the time, so you drink it when you can, and thoroughly enjoy mingling with those who have more expertise than you. Someone in this group can have a great palate and insight on wine, and is only lacking in experience.

The final group, which is probably 95% of the poplulation in the US, can barely tell the difference between boxed wine and a first growth Bordeaux.

Also like wine, the greatness of a golf course does not always correlate to the price you pay to get on it. There are plenty of expensive courses out there that cannot hold a candle to a great muni.

Based on this thread, Golf World would probably equate to Wine Spectator.

Which Golf magazine out there would equate to Robert Parker's Wine Advocate?

[Carl Nichols]

John,

The top 1 to 5% mentioned a couple posts above will tell you that anyone who mixes Maker's with anything is wrong.

Agreed -- if you're mixing bourbon and with coke, you're just wasting money on Makers.

[Carl Nichols]

What's interesting to me is that in the restaurant context, the rankings in Zagat's -- which is just a compilation of votes by John Q. Public -- is much closer to restaurant critics' rankings than the GolfWorld list is to the magazine ratings.  In fact, the Zagat *golf* rankings (which are also just a compilation of votes by the public) seem a lot closer to the magazine rankings than this GolfWorld list.  Maybe in the Zagat context there's some skew, since you have to jump through some hoops to vote, but I don't think that explains everything. 

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

The top 1 to 5% mentioned a couple posts above will tell you that anyone who mixes Maker's with anything is wrong.

Agreed -- if you're mixing bourbon and with coke, you're just wasting money on Makers.

Come on...we are talking about a morning drink.  I may prefer Belvedere in my Bloody Mary but I don't tell them to hold the tomato juice.   If you don't splash a bit of something before noon you might have a problem.

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