Who was the first modern golf architect?

[Thomas MacWood]

Relating to my previous question about when modern golf architecture began, who was the first modern golf architect?

When modern golf architecture began and who was the first modern golf architect may or may not be related.

[Joel_Stewart]

Has to be Robert Trent Jones, the obvious choice.   At least of any significance.

[TEPaul]

What do YOU mean by "modern golf architecture"?

I can cite some articles where Tillinghast used the term probably as early as the teens or even early teens but mostly on this website it seems we refer to "Modern" GCA or the "Modern Era" as meaning architecture that was built post WW2.

[Thomas MacWood]

Has to be Robert Trent Jones, the obvious choice.   At least of any significance.

Joel
What would you say differentiated RTJ, what made him the fist modern golf architect in your opinion?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Whats Modern? 1800-2008?

First of the modern was

Allan Robertson (1815 – 1859)

[Thomas MacWood]

Whats Modern? 1800-2008?

First of the modern was

Allan Robertson (1815 – 1859)

You tell me. Why is Robertson the first modern golf architect?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tell me why not?

[Thomas MacWood]

Tell me why not?

I'm not disagreeing with you, I would just like know why you feel he is the first modern golf architect.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tough question - everyone and everything was modern, once. I argued a while back the Pete Dye was the first "American" architect -- and lots of other nominations come forward for that title.

But I think that when you get someone a) re-creating the principles of great British links golf b) by using the latest earth-moving equipment, c) while revelling in the 'hand of man' look d) and designing to test Tour-level players on an intenrational scale e) all the while knowing that colour television will be the medium by which the vast majority of golfers will experience the course -- well, that's pretty modern, and that's Pete Dye at Sawgrass.

Peter

[Eric Franzen]

But I think that when you get someone a) re-creating the principles of great British links golf b) by using the latest earth-moving equipment, c) while revelling in the 'hand of man' look

A,B and C could also been applied on Lido. But I don't think that I will stretch it to include tour players and color television...

[Matt Varney]

Pete Dye created modern golf at TPC Sawgrass.

Look at what followed and has been designed and created since that project.  It is modern golf all rolled into one course - long, tough, challenging with narrow fairways, wild greens and large waste areas with bunkering that could destroy the average player.  Most importantly it was built to test the best in the game at the highest level.  Now decades later when the wind blows and they prep that course for The Players it is a complete test of control, patience and can you go 4 days without being fully exposed and having a meltdown over a couple holes that destroye your chance of winning.

Older course that are U.S. Open venues are tough because they have been made longer by guys like Rees Jones, they move the bunkers, tighten the fairways and get the greens slick as glass (except for maybe Oakmont).  Pete Dye created that type of course from the land he was given at TPC Sawgrass with his own unique "Modern" look and it has stood the test of time.

Matt

[Ulrich Mayring]

I'll give it to Willie Park Jr. He was at Sunningdale and Huntercombe the first to actually stay at a construction site as a non-resident for an extended time and make sure the course gets built the way he envisioned it.

Ulrich

[David Stamm]

I don't think Pete Dye brought anything really new to the table, I think he took ideas from GB&I and pumped it with 'roids. I think his timing is what really set him apart from the others in that when RTJ, Wilson, Fazio, etc where doing somewhat similiar, linear work, he just did the opposite. When they where zigging, he decided to zag. And did it becuase he knew if he didn't, he wouldn't stand out from the rest.

Tom, this is a very difficult question to answer. If I had to point to one, I would say Colt. But then again as Peter said, alot of designers were "Modern" (whatever that means) at some point.

[Randy Thompson]

I don´t think there is any real black and white answer here but for me it is Pete Dye but not with TPC but a course he did fifteen or twenty years before that, Teeth of the Dog in the Dominican Republic.

[Sean_A]

I don't think Pete Dye brought anything really new to the table, I think he took ideas from GB&I and pumped it with 'roids. I think his timing is what really set him apart from the others in that when RTJ, Wilson, Fazio, etc where doing somewhat similiar, linear work, he just did the opposite. When they where zigging, he decided to zag. And did it becuase he knew if he didn't, he wouldn't stand out from the rest.

Tom, this is a very difficult question to answer. If I had to point to one, I would say Colt. But then again as Peter said, alot of designers were "Modern" (whatever that means) at some point.

I go with Colt as well.  He completely transformed the idea of what a golf archie is.  He essentially created what we now think of in broad terms as a parkland course.  He was the first to really push dirt about while making a successful effort to naturalize a look.  He set standards which really haven't been surpassed.  I think Colt is more influential in what we now think of as inland golf (which in a large measure is modern architecture) than we can really measure. 

Ciao

[Neil_Crafter]

Colt for me too.

He wasn't a golf professional who laid out courses as part of what he did. Colt was quickly able to get to a point where he could be designing courses as a full time endeavour and this makes him for me the first modern professional golf course architect.

[Joel_Stewart]

Of course it's subjective to when modern architecure began.  Others had features that may seem modern but in my mind, Jones didn't just use modern earth moving equipment, irrigation and drainage but also penal architecture in a very modern sense.  It began around the time he built Peachtree.

[Ian Andrew]

Of course it's subjective to when modern architecure began.  Others had features that may seem modern but in my mind, Jones didn't just use modern earth moving equipment, irrigation and drainage but also penal architecture in a very modern sense.  It began around the time he built Peachtree.

I see Peachtree and Trent Jones as the foundation for the movement.

[Thomas MacWood]

Ian
I don't know Peachtree well. From what I've seen it looks to be a cross between Thompson and Augusta, which makes sense since Jones was a protege of Thompson's. Is Peachtree more advanced than Thompson's best designs?

[Tom_Doak]

All of the history of golf course architecture is a continuum ... there is really no profound break in the evolution of design.  There was a profound break in the 1930's and 40's due to the Depression and the war, but Mr. Jones just picked up where Ross, Tillinghast, MacKenzie, and his mentor Stanley Thompson had left off.

I suppose you could divide the business by eras of construction, i.e. when did massive earthmoving become common, but then you either have to go back to Lido and Banff or you have to make them "exceptions".

Peachtree was Augusta National all over again, on not as great a piece of ground.