[John Moore II]

Ian Andrew: Your post explains exactly what I was trying to say, but I didn't have the depth of knowledge to say it adequately. You did. This is the exact time period and exact methods I was trying to note as the start of what we now call the modern age.

[Thomas MacWood]

Ian
With the possible exception of his super tees all that other stuff was going on in the late 20s and 30s. Its seems to me RTJ greatest accomplishments were: runway tees, the big architectural office and unequaled PR.

As it turned out the runway tee was not a better alternative to two or three smaller tees. I don't think it  is used that often today, although I could be wrong. The big office, with many associate golf architects, may be his most important development. Aren't there a lot of offices that follow that model? Though there appears to be many successful exceptions to the rule today. As far as PR, I think he was the best ever, but the importance of PR was recognized by golf architects long before RTJ.

[Rich Goodale]

To me, in a sense it is really a continuum, probably starting around 1850 when the Old Course was radically changed with significant clearing of vegetation (gorse) and the moving of dirt to create what is now the outward 9.

Ian makes a good point about 1946.  Overall it was a turning point in terms of the philosophy of modernisation and large scale construction was much more possible due to the lessons learned, equipment improved and people trained in the work done by the SeaBees in World War II.

[wsmorrison]

For me, it began at Merion and Pine Valley with a new Americanized golf architecture that introduced an almost equal measure of aerial demand holes and ground/aerial option holes designed to provide shot testing, sometimes very specific shot testing.  This new design theory was continued by William Flynn, a transition architect between the classic era and the modern.  His designs ushered in the work of Dick Wilson, RTJ and others.  Some of the innovations attributed to these modern designers were adopted Flynn features such as multiple tees, either distinct or combined, each to be played by different classes of golfers.  Flynn was an early employer of runway tees as a method to present multiple tee positions on a single day.

[Thomas MacWood]

The aerial game is a modern idea? Its ironic that this new Americanized golf architecture was heavily influenced by architects whose roots were clearly in Britain.

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

Yes he was the king of PR – but he also established the golf course architect as a recognized professional. When at the 1951 US Open when Ben Hogan made his famous remark “that I brought the monster to its knees,” the attention went directly to Trent through a series of articles (including Wind's article in the New Yorker) about his work. Trent became the most famous and recognizable architect in golf. His opinion was what mattered to the public and press.

Since he was ushering a new design style and people were clamouring for a new era in all facets of their life – he set the standard for the era to follow – Modernism. He may have called it the heroic school of architecture, which was a blend of the penal school and the strategic school – but it was all about his own philosophy. Trent used a combination bunkers including target bunkers to emphasis the strategy of many landing areas. He also used flanking bunkering on occasion and even fronting bunkers at greens to mix things up which began to define the notion of an aerial attack being required. His architecture was very visual and he tended to fully define all the target areas from tee to green making the course easy to understand.

There is no question that Robert Trent Jones was the champion for the average player. The variety in yardages and the mantra of a hard par and an easy bogie was something the public liked and the media embraced as good design. Trent Jones employed a common sense approach and a visual flair to create a “new” standard for golf design that was easy to understand and clear right from the very first play.

He also took on too much work and founded the notion of the modern office with its many employees and large emphasis on working drawings. He is still the basic poster child of most firms to this day. He brought us the idea of the signature architect and made his own name a brand name.

Post war was the era of Modernization - a time when people were looking for machinery to simplify their lives. Golf was no different from construction equipment through to new mainteance equipment. He may have defined what was to come but the other factors like machinery were also defining a change at the same time.

[Ian Andrew]

William Flynn, a transition architect between the classic era and the modern. 

Wayne I completely agree with your assesment. Trent talked about Tillinghast and Thompson being his inspiration but he was clearly - in my mind at least - influenced by William Flynn.

I think Flynn could easily be called the father of modern architecture. Just like Dye the father of Minimalism.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

To some extent everything was going on from the beginning. Not a useful starting point for what I think could be a useful distinction.

What RTJ did starting at ANGC and P'tree is different and marks the beginning of a new era. That doesn't make it intrinsically modern. Afterall when Low dug his centerline bunker on the 4th at Woking, it was "modern" at the time. Ditto for Myopia, NGLA, etc. at the time they were built. All in a meaningful sense were "modern".

Nonetheless it is useful to name different eras. Those names tend to be pretty much arbitrary. Which is fine. Personally, calling the RTJ era the "Modern" era makes sense. Better than calling it the Dark Ages.

RTJ was different in ways that can be identified. The look of his golf courses is different and pretty easy to distinguish from GA courses. Thinking out loud, the reasons for that are:

- less concern with natual looking features (his hollowed out dirt pile bunkers are a trademark)
- less concern with building features into existing natural forms generally
- frequent use of water hazards, with an emphasis on forced carries (heroic or other wise). Contra Ross and many others, RTJ used water at every opportunity and then some.
- big tees as noted
- narrower, more penally bunkered landing areas
- longer, narrower courses
- green centerlines that line up with the fw centerlines.
- very few blind shots
- architectural features that are easily maintained, thus less filligree bunkers, fewer deep bunkers, bigger bunkers in lieu of several smaller bunkers, green shapes amenable to easy maintenance and so forth, all leading to a plainer, cleaner (modern?) look to his courses.

None of the above is orginal to RTJ. You can cite instances where any one of them appeared in the GA. But he was the first to package them as such and he did so with a specific design philosphy in mind. That the RTJ package was seen as new is sugested by the fact that it changed the direction of gca for the next three decades.

Bob  

[wsmorrison]

Ian,

Thank you for your comment.  I think the principles developed by Wilson, Crump and Flynn carried forward into the next generation of architects and resulted in modern American architecture, directly through Dick Wilson, Red Lawrence and William Gordon (though I admit I haven't studied this as much as I should) and also indirectly to RTJ and others.  The concepts of shot testing, multiple tees, a variety of aerial and ground/aerial holes, use of perspective, reverse doglegs within a framework of naturalism (the use of natural ground as much as possible and where necessary manufactured architecture that resembles nature) have passed the test of time.

Tom MacWood,

You need to take reading comprehension classes.  Either that or you are not capable of understanding what you read (there is a lot of evidence to support that theory) or you are simply too biased on your concerted mission to revise all of golf history to your warped views.  Whatever the cause, the effect is annoying.

[Neil_Crafter]

Ian
Dye the father of minimalism??

Maybe a great uncle twice removed.

[Ian Andrew]

Neil,

"Dye the father of minimalism?"

Have you ever seen The Golf Club? This is the opener

[quote

[Thomas MacWood]

For me, it began at Merion and Pine Valley with a new Americanized golf architecture that introduced an almost equal measure of aerial demand holes and ground/aerial option holes designed to provide shot testing, sometimes very specific shot testing. 

This was new? Most links and heathland courses of that era (and before) were an almost equal measure of aerial and ground option holes.
 

[Sean_A]

For me, it began at Merion and Pine Valley with a new Americanized golf architecture that introduced an almost equal measure of aerial demand holes and ground/aerial option holes designed to provide shot testing, sometimes very specific shot testing.  This new design theory was continued by William Flynn, a transition architect between the classic era and the modern.  His designs ushered in the work of Dick Wilson, RTJ and others.  Some of the innovations attributed to these modern designers were adopted Flynn features such as multiple tees, either distinct or combined, each to be played by different classes of golfers.  Flynn was an early employer of runway tees as a method to present multiple tee positions on a single day.

Wayne

I wonder if thats true - the concept of a balanced ground/aerial approaches being an American concept specifically created at Merion and PV.  To be honest, intentional or not, the aerial game was very abundant in British architecture - to the point, where I would hazard a guess that hilly sites in the winter would have required a load of aerial shots.  Chuck in the intentional aerials and it makes me wonder about your statement.  But then we are talking about a matter of degree and it is clear that aerial golf existed and was praised before the advent of at least PV - I am not sure about Merion because it was so radically altered from its early beginnings.

Ian - Pete Dye a minimalist?

Ciao

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom -

To some extent everything was going on from the beginning. Not a useful starting point for what I think could be a useful distinction.

What RTJ did starting at ANGC and P'tree is different and marks the beginning of a new era. That doesn't make it intrinsically modern. Afterall when Low dug his centerline bunker on the 4th at Woking, it was "modern" at the time. Ditto for Myopia, NGLA, etc. at the time they were built. All in a meaningful sense were "modern".

Nonetheless it is useful to name different eras. Those names tend to be pretty much arbitrary. Which is fine. Personally, calling the RTJ era the "Modern" era makes sense. Better than calling it the Dark Ages.

RTJ was different in ways that can be identified. The look of his golf courses is different and pretty easy to distinguish from GA courses. Thinking out loud, the reasons for that are:

- less concern with natual looking features (his hollowed out dirt pile bunkers are a trademark) I would disagree with that...the aesthetics of hazards in the 30s, 40s and 50s were very similar to Thompson.
- less concern with building features into existing natural forms generally Was he less concerned with building features into existing natural forms or not hesitant to make man-made forms on sites that were somewhat featureless?
- frequent use of water hazards, with an emphasis on forced carries (heroic or other wise). Contra Ross and many others, RTJ used water at every opportunity and then some. Did he use water more frequently than Thompson and Strong. Macdonald & Raynor used water quite a bit and PVGC has its share of water holes as well. Those courses and architects, as well as Mackenzie, were the models for his heroic ideas.
- big tees as noted
- narrower, more penally bunkered landing areas I would agree with that as time went on, but his early courses were not like that. He never really repeated a full blown Oakland Hills model.
- longer, narrower courses Longer, yes, narrower I'm not sure about that.
- green centerlines that line up with the fw centerlines. What is fw?
- very few blind shots That trend began before RTJ.
- architectural features that are easily maintained, thus less filligree bunkers, fewer deep bunkers, bigger bunkers in lieu of several smaller bunkers, green shapes amenable to easy maintenance and so forth, all leading to a plainer, cleaner (modern?) look to his courses. When I think of RTJ I don't think of plainer/cleaner bunkers.

None of the above is orginal to RTJ. You can cite instances where any one of them appeared in the GA. But he was the first to package them as such and he did so with a specific design philosphy in mind. That the RTJ package was seen as new is sugested by the fact that it changed the direction of gca for the next three decades.

Most everything RTJ did in the 30s, 40s and 50s was a continuation of Thompson.

Bob  

[Thomas MacWood]

Neil,

"Dye the father of minimalism?"

Have you ever seen The Golf Club? This is the opener

That is a very good point. At the time The Golf Club was looked upon as ultra-modern and on the cutting edge (contrasted with RTJ, Wilson, Finger, Cobb, etc), but in reality it was a throw back and very minimalistic. IMO it was Dye's best design and that period was his best.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

I haven't seen many Thompson courses, but it is clear that everyone at the time (circa 1950) saw RTJ as building a new kind of golf course. Which is not to say that everything he did was without precedent.

RTJ courses don't look like GA courses. Most people would agree with that. I gave my best shot above at why that might be the case. I still like my list.

Most people call him the father of "Modern Architecture". It's an arbitrary designation in some respects, but I think it makes sense.

Let's not confuse "modern" with "original". There is very little that is orignal in gca at any point along the way. With every new generation there is something modern.

Bob
 

 

[wsmorrison]

PVGC has its share of water holes as well

Most golf courses have their share of water holes...from 1 to 18.  Pine Valley has, in fact, very little water in play--on only 2 holes.  So its share of water holes is very small.  Tee shots play over water on 5, but the carry is not much more than 100 yards from the middle of the back tee and the green is set well over 100 yards beyond the pond.  There certainly is water in play on 14, it is a 200 yard carry from the back tee.  The tee shot on 15 carries water but it doesn't come into play as the carry is only 125-170 yards depending upon the tee used.  There is water to the right of the 16th green which comes into play on mis-hit approaches.  The approach shot on 18 is over water but the water is 30 yards short of the green and only comes into play for the high handicapper.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom -

I haven't seen many Thompson courses, but it is clear that everyone at the time (circa 1950) saw RTJ as building a new kind of golf course. Which is not to say that everything he did was without precedent.

RTJ courses don't look like GA courses. Most people would agree with that. I gave my best shot above at why that might be the case. I still like my list.

Most people call him the father of "Modern Architecture". It's an arbitrary designation in some respects, but I think it makes sense.

Let's not confuse "modern" with "original". There is very little that is orignal in gca at any point along the way. With every new generation there is something modern.

Bob
 

Bob
I think Trent Jones was still doing creative work in 1950, very much a continuation of the golden age and Thompson. I do agree with you, at some point he started mailing it in and producing courses that were formulaic. His services were in such demand worldwide, he became a big design machine and I don't think he gave much personal attention to most of his projects. But I'm not sure when he jumped the shark...I'd say probably closer to 1960, if not after 1960.

[Thomas MacWood]

PVGC has its share of water holes as well

Most golf courses have their share of water holes...from 1 to 18.  Pine Valley has, in fact, very little water in play--on only 2 holes.  So its share of water holes is very small.  Tee shots play over water on 5, but the carry is not much more than 100 yards from the middle of the back tee and the green is set well over 100 yards beyond the pond.  There certainly is water in play on 14, it is a 200 yard carry from the back tee.  The tee shot on 15 carries water but it doesn't come into play as the carry is only 125-170 yards depending upon the tee used.  There is water to the right of the 16th green which comes into play on mis-hit approaches.  The approach shot on 18 is over water but the water is 30 yards short of the green and only comes into play for the high handicapper.

Four holes isn't too bad, and all four are heroic.

[BCrosby]

Wayne -

Agreed. The only water you notice at PV is on the 14th. Maybe also a bit to the right of the 16th green. Strong's use of water at Ponte Vedra is quite restrained given a piece of property that encircles a brackish waterway. Ross seemed to avoid water like the plague. I've always thought that Pebble, with a single forced carry over water, would have been designed very differently by a modern.  

On the flip side, one of the ways in which MacK was unique was his bold use of water. But during the GA, he was something of an outlier on this and other matters.

With RTJ and later, architects appeared to feel compelled to engage maximally every bit of water available.

Bob

  

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bob

‘Let's not confuse "modern" with "original"’.   BUT ORIGINAL WAS MODERN ONCE


‘There is very little that is orignal in gca at any point along the way’.   NOT SURE I AGREE, TEES, FAIRWAYS, GREENS, HOLES, FLAGS PLUS HAZARDS, TO NAME JUST ONE OR TWO ORIGINAL GCA ITEMS


‘With every new generation there is something modern’.  LIKE TEES, FAIRWAYS, GREENS, HOLES, FLAGS PLUS HAZARDS?


I take your point but tell me what is new and I’m not talking about moving earth to make a course or construction methods which change with the years. I still say the modern era of Golf started around the mid 1850’s when course were deliberately laid out i.e. greens being formed or constructed and the introduction of man made hazards. 

So locations shaped course design and the construction to cater for theses sites, individual designers mixed and matched different ideas and approaches, some much more fortunate that others by having the financial resource to put into practice there designs. Modern in that they are newer and use up to date equipment, yes no problem with that, but whilst we have tees, fairways, greens etc I can’t agree that we are in a new modern age of golf. Fundamentally the system has not changed, we are in the same age of modern golf but able to utilising a massive amount of technology throughout all the process of GCA both mechanical and electronically.

Perhaps in this instance, the word Modern is not doing justice to the question, but as I said about if the fundamentals have not changed, pray tell how has design?

[Thomas MacWood]

I forgot the 16th, five holes is not too bad. About the same number of holes as Peachtree. Did RTJ ever mention the influence of PV on his heroic idea of architecture?

I believe nearly every hole at Strong's Ponte Vedra had water. Mackenzie, Alison, Strong, Thompson, Macdonald, Raynor, Langford, Emmet, Tillinghast and Ross all used water, and quite boldly on a number of their designs.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

You are going to have to trust me on Ponte Vedra. I've played it a hundred or so times. On a piece property that snakes through a waterway, his use of water is remarkably restrained. There are only two forced carries over water, both on short par 3's, both with bail-outs. A modern would have used the extensive water there very differently.

Melvin -

Everything original is modern. Everything modern is not necessarily original.

Making 1850 the starting point for modern gca is a little like saying Plato and Aristotle were the beginning points for modern philosophy. You could say that, but at the price of hollowing out the meaning of "modern".

Bob

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom -

You are going to have to trust me on Ponte Vedra. I've played it a hundred or so times. On a piece property that snakes through a waterway, his use of water is remarkably restrained. There are only two forced carries over water, both on short par 3's, both with bail-outs. A modern would have used the extensive water there very differently.

Melvin -

Everything original is modern. Everything modern is not necessarily original.

Making 1850 the starting point for modern gca is a little like saying Plato and Aristotle were the beginning points for modern philosophy. You could say that, but at the price of hollowing out the meaning of "modern".

Bob

I didn't say there weren't bail-outs, I said there was water on nearly every hole, which is pretty remarkable. RTJ was not opposed to bailouts either. Two of his most famous heroic designs - the 13th at Dorado and 13th at Dunes - feature bail-outs.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian - Pete Dye a minimalist?

Ciao

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