Lawsonia: The Links Course Photo Tour

[Sean_A]

Dan

Thanks again.  It has been a most enjoyable tour and one of the best presented on this site.  I have a few comments that I hope you can respond to.

I like the short bunker on #10 a lot.  There is something about hiding the landing zone when/if a run-up shot is required that really appeals to me. 

From the photos it doesn't appear that there is much difference in space to go around L&M's "echelon bunkers" as seen on #13 and their "cross bunkers" (which btw I can find no other archie who labels cross bunkers the way L&M do) as seen on the front 9.  This would seem to leave same choices from the tee for either style of bunkering - assuming they are at a relatively similar distance from the tee.  Perhaps the pics are misleading or the fairway to the right of the "echelon bunkers" on 13 has been narrowed. 

The choice of laying up or trying to get to the flat on #13 really reminds me of Ross courses.  He seemed to do this a lot and to great effect.  I do not like that new tree planting in the least. 

It is a real pity the trees to the left of #14 (at the very least) can't be taken out.  It seems like a fade kicking through the gate is a credible play, but the trees make that shot unnecessarily tight.

The angles used throughout the course look to be very well judged in relation to the green complexes.  This reminds me a lot of Beau Desert.  In fact, the greens and how they have drop offs is very similar - though I suspect Lawsonia's are purely for interest and perhaps drainage while BD's are mainly to keep the greens puttable because the course is essentially on the sides of a hill. 

That 18th is somewhat similar to #14 - a sort of pop up green with the gate on the opposite side of the green ( I guess fair play for righties and lefties).  Both look very cool and it must be dead easy for balls kick/run away if a shot is not quite on target. 

The course looks to be a stunner and one of the few I see profiled on here which really intrigues me.  I would like to get there some day. 

Ciao

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

If this is what you're driving at, I'd suggest there is plenty of room right of the en echelon bunkers on 13 for the golfer who is either short off of the tee or unwilling to take much of a gamble in trying to clear any of the bunkers. This hole is really one of the best at Lawsonia, in part because Langford did such a neat job in blending the natural terrian with features like those trio of bunkers to create varying lines of play and options on how to play it. One of the neat features of the hole is a small shelf area of the fairway coming out of the deep ravine that fronts the greensite. It's a place for the lesser golfer to try to get closer to the green, and a target area for the bolder and better golfer looking to get across the ravine with a second shot. I'm mixed on the new tree -- the quite tall old one was an interesting feature before it died, but now that the newly planted one is less dominant, I can see the argument for simply leaving the fairway completely void of the tree.

I think your comments re. 14 tree clearing are good ones; the tee box on that hole is quite wide, and tee markers set to the left side of the tee can cause problems, as the hole plays slightly downhill and is a short-iron for most.

[Adam Clayman]

Re the tree on 13; Since the proper play is short, laying back at the 150 range for ones third, the tree offers a visual clue on how to properly play the hole for the first timer. It also, protects 15 tee from tugged non thinkers who naturally try to get as close as possible to the green on their second. 

Sean, The cross bunker term does apply because they do cross the line of instinct, or are on the inside legs of slight turns. On 13 and other holes they work exactly like Dr. Mac's 3rd at CPC or Pete Dye's 16th on the River course at BWR. They essentially are diagonal cross carries. Call'em a rose, since they play so sweet. Your discussion has taught me not to get too hung up on the terminology. It's the concept, use and application that matter. Thanx.

RE 14; The old photo really does show a much better hole. The current version is a much inferior hole, all due to the claustrophobia.

[Patrick Kiser]

Dan,

I didn't think you could do any better ... but you've outdone yourself with the back nine addition.  Awesome.

I definitely agree about some of the tree clearing needed.  Seems odd too since to a large extent the course is wide open and presents few occasions where the trees encroach.  Ron must be making plans to clear a little.  Right?

I think what I find really great is how indeed there may be some penal situations ... but it sure looks like you can just about always recover.  No water hazards, yet a tough challenge.

Great pre pics as well.  I just love this before and after.

I'm thinking road trip next year.  Especially with their stay and play.  Hmmm...

[Sean_A]

Re the tree on 13; Since the proper play is short, laying back at the 150 range for ones third, the tree offers a visual clue on how to properly play the hole for the first timer. It also, protects 15 tee from tugged non thinkers who naturally try to get as close as possible to the green on their second. 

Sean, The cross bunker term does apply because they do cross the line of instinct, or are on the inside legs of slight turns. On 13 and other holes they work exactly like Dr. Mac's 3rd at CPC or Pete Dye's 16th on the River course at BWR. They essentially are diagonal cross carries. Call'em a rose, since they play so sweet. Your discussion has taught me not to get too hung up on the terminology. It's the concept, use and application that matter. Thanx.

RE 14; The old photo really does show a much better hole. The current version is a much inferior hole, all due to the claustrophobia.

Adam

I agree so long as everyone knows the course.  However, if you were to tell me that a cross bunker is out at whatever distance I imagine a bunker going straight across the fairway creating a forced carry (or damn close to it) - there is no option but to go over the hazard if one wants to play the fairway route.  Clearly, L&M offer a choice to avoid these diagonal (rather than right angle) hazards.  I also believe this is what was originally meant by the term (hence the name) which is why I am surprised by the L&M take on the word.  I stated before that Colt loved to turn his bunkers on an angle and break them up - thus creating a different strategic purpose from a cross bunker (which was in vogue just before Colt and Fowler still used them well after they were out of fashion).  The L&M "cross bunker" is strategically akin to Colt's idea. 

Ciao

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

It may be a matter of semantics, but I'll dive in anway. Langford's design scheme almost always provides for an alternate line of attack if one chooses not to take on his large and penal bunkers, "cross" or not. Dan's pictures of holes 3 and 17 are good examples -- one can flirt with inside or (in the case of a right-side pin position on 17) left-side bunkers on these holes off the tee, and be rewarded with better approaches. But the risk is significant -- his fairway bunkers are quite penal, in the sense of being able to advance the ball on a direct line to the pin.

One (more...) thing that is a nice feature of Lawsonia, and Langford courses generally, is the way he uses both blindness for uncertainty on some shots, but also large and obvious features in other areas, to give the golfer a real sense of what he's taking on, and the risks inherent (or not) in certain lines of play.

[Dan Moore]

From the photos it doesn't appear that there is much difference in space to go around L&M's "echelon bunkers" as seen on #13 and their "cross bunkers" (which btw I can find no other archie who labels cross bunkers the way L&M do) as seen on the front 9.  This would seem to leave same choices from the tee for either style of bunkering - assuming they are at a relatively similar distance from the tee.  Perhaps the pics are misleading or the fairway to the right of the "echelon bunkers" on 13 has been narrowed. 

Sean,  Thank you and others for the kind comments. 

With respect the cross bunker discussion I think we need to look at when Langford was writing--1915 as I think Langford used the term as bunkering evolved in that period of time. This was right on a cusp of a dramatic evolution away from the "rampart style" cross bunker that extended across the course at a right angle as a mere obstacle to be carried with a more stylized, and this is key, strategic style of bunkering.  In Chicago in particular, 1913 marks a significant transition with the arrival of Harry Colt and Donald Ross who collaborated on Old Elm.   Old Elm has several diagonal cross bunkers and centrally located fairway bunkers.

In 1915 Langford had this to say about "cross bunkers".

"Thus to open up two or more avenues of play on a hole we must build our cross bunkers en echelon (step formation) or diagonally across the course, and must allow bunkers built at right angles to the line of play to extend only partially across the course, leaving room to play around them on both ends." 

And the photos may not show it but there is ample room to avoid the en echelon bunkers on 13 by playing out to the right with a penalty of some distance. 

[Doug Siebert]

Dan,

I didn't think you could do any better ... but you've outdone yourself with the back nine addition.  Awesome.

I definitely agree about some of the tree clearing needed.  Seems odd too since to a large extent the course is wide open and presents few occasions where the trees encroach.  Ron must be making plans to clear a little.  Right?

I think what I find really great is how indeed there may be some penal situations ... but it sure looks like you can just about always recover.  No water hazards, yet a tough challenge.

Great pre pics as well.  I just love this before and after.

I'm thinking road trip next year.  Especially with their stay and play.  Hmmm...

Whether its penal or not depends on how far and how wild you hit it.  I managed to lose a few balls there because the landing area is blind on some holes, the further you hit the more landing areas that are blind.  If you land in that hay but can't see exactly where it went down, its a crapshoot whether you will find it.

Tee shots on 2, 5, 6, 15, 16, and 17 are most prone to this issue.  I'm thinking that when I return I may tee off with my 1 iron on some of those just to increase my chances of 1) keeping it in play and 2) hit it shorter to where I can see it land.  That won't help on all holes, but on holes like 5 for instance where you have a little dropoff of about 10 feet out there a ways (270, 280, something like that?) the difference between carrying into the hay just short of the dropoff and doing so just past it is probably 1 shot on average, because you have nearly a 100% chance of finding it if lands short so you can see it go in, and a 50% shot at best if you carry that hill and can't see it land in there.

But no, I'm not bitter about 5, no sirree   At least when I lost one on 8 it was because I was probably rather stupidly trying to drive the green and yanked it way left over the tree by the #9 teebox so I couldn't see it land, and on 15 because I just took too aggressive of a line.  Those are my own dumb fault, but the thing on 5 really irked me because it couldn't have been more than a few feet offline but I couldn't find the damn thing but had it been a big short of the dropoff I would have been fine.

Its too bad because that grass is (or at least was last year, it looks greener in these photos from this year with all the rain in spring/early summer) not that hard to play from.  Its rather like the long grass at Muirfield, you can always manage 80% of your normal SW distance out of it, and if you get lucky with a lie you might be able to dig a full 6 or 7 iron out of there.

[Phil McDade]

Doug:

Well, 5 is a tight little bugger, isn't it? Short at 487 for a par 5, it has OB down the entire right side and junk left. An under-rated risk/reward hole, because as you note, the "turbo boost" is reachable for the long hitter -- a mid-iron second into the green for some if you reach it -- but blind off the tee, with trouble for the wayward (even the slightly wayward).

I hope folks aren't left with the impression that Langford didn't leave generous room on the fairways with blind or partial blindness. I'd argue he did -- Doug, do you see it differently?

[Adam Clayman]

Phil, Folks? I know of no astute student that has not seen Lawsonia and doesn't want to get there.

Having grown up in the GCA blemished wasteland that was Chicago public golf in the 1980's, No words ring truer to spark a recreational golfer's interest in the topic of GCA.

One (more...) thing that is a nice feature of Lawsonia, and Langford courses generally, is the way he uses both blindness for uncertainty on some shots, but also large and obvious features in other areas, to give the golfer a real sense of what he's taking on, and the risks inherent (or not) in certain lines of play.

The "Hell" like bunkers used on the 5th and 6th holes alone, should open the eyes of someone who never gave GCA a thought.

I do remember the red fescue fairways. In my memory, they were 6 yards wide. But the rough was also matted down and not the typical no fun lush crap found on high end courses.

[Brad Swanson]

I hope folks aren't left with the impression that Langford didn't leave generous room on the fairways with blind or partial blindness. I'd argue he did -- Doug, do you see it differently?

I think I know why Doug may find Lawsonia with less useable width than others.  From my recollection Doug likes to work the ball right to left off of the tee, and Lawsonia certainly favors a fade off of the tee.  Someone with a propensity to draw/hook the ball off of the tee may have a skewed perception of the width off of the tee due to the majority of tee-shots that favor a fade.  Just a guess. 

[Doug Siebert]

Doug:

Well, 5 is a tight little bugger, isn't it? Short at 487 for a par 5, it has OB down the entire right side and junk left. An under-rated risk/reward hole, because as you note, the "turbo boost" is reachable for the long hitter -- a mid-iron second into the green for some if you reach it -- but blind off the tee, with trouble for the wayward (even the slightly wayward).

I hope folks aren't left with the impression that Langford didn't leave generous room on the fairways with blind or partial blindness. I'd argue he did -- Doug, do you see it differently?

He did, I'm just more wild than most

[Doug Siebert]

I hope folks aren't left with the impression that Langford didn't leave generous room on the fairways with blind or partial blindness. I'd argue he did -- Doug, do you see it differently?

I think I know why Doug may find Lawsonia with less useable width than others.  From my recollection Doug likes to work the ball right to left off of the tee, and Lawsonia certainly favors a fade off of the tee.  Someone with a propensity to draw/hook the ball off of the tee may have a skewed perception of the width off of the tee due to the majority of tee-shots that favor a fade.  Just a guess. 

Well I prefer to play it straight, but as you correctly recall my misses turn left and you are definitely "right" about Lawsonia.  There are quite a few holes that ask for a good sized fade that approaches a slice (1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 15) and everything else is probably best probably played with a small fade with the exception of 13, which is really a reverse Cape Hole that works best with a draw.

My big difficulty there isn't the turning but the fact the turning points of the fairways were designed for 1930 distances.  Guys who drive it like you and me who want to hit the ball straight have to cut way across the gunk in the corner and hitting the fairway requires not only being approximately straight but also hitting the ball approximately the right distance.  That's kind of why I'm thinking I need to give the 1 iron a little workout there next time, since its distance will work better with the location of the turning points of many of those fairways.

[Jay Flemma]

Just wanted to revive this as I had a great time at Lawsonia with Dick Daley and Steve the Marine - who is a Great American...capital G, capital A.

What a great start!  I have no problem with the blind drive on 1 or 2...I loved cresting the hill and seeing the hole unfold.  Great shaping all the way around.  There's a right side to miss and a wrong side, that';s for sure.  There are great interior contours on the green, and a strong routing that plays into the most interesting parts of the property.

Fave holes:  1 - it defines the character of the course and sets the stage for what you see all day.  5...thank goodness Brither William didn;t tell me there was OB right because i slugged a driver.

I also like that it doesn;'t take the driver out of your hands, but requires strong drives nonetheless!

[RJ_Daley]

If Lawsonia were on Long Island, it would be among the pantheon of elite courses.  I can't even imagine what it would cost if it were a private club there.  Thank goodness for the Baptist Assembly, and how they have kept it a public, centerpiece of their resort and retreat complex there in Green Lake.  You should have seen the old white lapstrake siding clubhouse-pro shop, and I wish I could have been more mature in the late 50s-60s to fullly realise what it was when it was merely watered with quick couplers and the FWs were baked to the point of cracking soil in hot dry stretches.  The ball would run!  Come to think of it, I have a fair memory of once having a mere chip to be on the green in 3 at 18 as about a 12 year old.  Of course that would not go in today's tech world. 

they als

It continues to be a funny proposition that those vast majority of uninformed or casual golfers who plan their day trips and weekend retreats at Green Lake, continue to first book and play the Woodlands course there.  Not that the Woodlands is horrible.  But, Lawsonia Links for any serious golfer who cares about classic design and play, is a must. 

Lawsaonia also has a pubicity shy superintendent who is largely responsible for getting Ron Forse and Jim Nagle in there to recapture much of the original design intent.  He apparently has been influential in keeping the oversight committee of the Baptist Assembly informed and understanding of the gen they have entrusted to their care and preservation.  They really can't be thanked too much in keeping it avbailable to the public at reasonable prices.

[RJ_Daley]

While it was said above, Dan Moore had done a great deal in keeping Lawsonia on the radar screen of GCA.com followers.  His feature here a few years ago really did get to the essense of Lawsonia.  I hope Dan is able to get up there to enjoy it many times to come, with his son and friends. 

[Phil McDade]

Just wanted to revive this as I had a great time at Lawsonia with Dick Daley and Steve the Marine - who is a Great American...capital G, capital A.

What a great start!  I have no problem with the blind drive on 1 or 2...I loved cresting the hill and seeing the hole unfold.  Great shaping all the way around.  There's a right side to miss and a wrong side, that';s for sure.  There are great interior contours on the green, and a strong routing that plays into the most interesting parts of the property.

Jay:

You brightened my morning by singing the praises of the 1st at Lawsonia! That drive -- the opening shot at a wonderful course -- has been criticized in some quarters as being bland, and it has been changed over the years, as the hole used to play as a par 5 (per Dan Moore's research) with the tee back by the current putting green (evidenced by the fairway mound that would normally play havoc with a second shot on a par 5, but is too far for most drives on a par 4).

I often like it when a course slowly unfolds -- no need for all the bells and whistles to be evident when walking up to the first tee. But turning that corner on the 1st fairway, and seeing both the long horizontal mound and that dramatically pushed-up green, gives the golfer a real sense of what's to come the rest of the round.

[Dan Moore]

Hey Guys.  How were the conditions?  When I played there a month ago on the Sunday of the PGA it was a bit rough around the edges due to the tough summer weather.  Looked like with a good aeration and some cooler temps, it would recover quick and I think they usually aerate the week prior to Labor Day.  Hopefully conditions have rebounded nicely.  Thanks. 

[PCCraig]

.

[RJ_Daley]

Like most areas around here, we had a real bad stretch of disease conducive weather, and most every course shows some ravages of that period of time.  Yet, the weather has moderated and most of the turf conditions are getting better rapidly.  Lawsonia has always kept the greens cut a fraction HOC longer than most courses and we found it pretty good shape the week of PGA when Jay was here.

I imagine they will stay open until last week of Oct or early Nov.  That is the best time of year to play.  I'd say it peaks in color, and after a few night frosts by about 2nd week of Oct.  If you have a chance to visit there at that time, you will not be disappointed.  These are the glory days of golf in many parts of the country.  It is a happy time, indeed.

[PCCraig]

Like most areas around here, we had a real bad stretch of disease conducive weather, and most every course shows some ravages of that period of time.  Yet, the weather has moderated and most of the turf conditions are getting better rapidly.  Lawsonia has always kept the greens cut a fraction HOC longer than most courses and we found it pretty good shape the week of PGA when Jay was here.

I imagine they will stay open until last week of Oct or early Nov.  That is the best time of year to play.  I'd say it peaks in color, and after a few night frosts by about 2nd week of Oct.  If you have a chance to visit there at that time, you will not be disappointed.  These are the glory days of golf in many parts of the country.  It is a happy time, indeed.

Thanks for the report.

I hope to get up there mid-October for a couple days of dawn-to-dusk golf, hopefully the weather will coordinate with a weekend I'm available!

[Sean_A]

I thought it was time to revive this thread. I am strongly considering stopping by Green Lake for a game in August. I was shooting for a game at Culver Academies, but that doesn't seem promising. Lawsonia has also been on my short list so what the hell. Has there been any changes...tree clearance...still have beer on tap?

Is the Green Lake Inn still good?

Ciao

[Brett Meyer]

Sean,

You should definitely go. I think that it's the best of Wisconsin's excellent collection of public courses and second only to Pinehurst no. 2 among public courses that I've played in the US.

To make a UK comparison, I'd say that it compares favorably with Swinley Forest...and I wouldn't be surprised if I'd like it more now because I haven't seen Swinley Forest since the recent alterations. The bunkering at Lawsonia is at least as interesting and the green complexes are clearly better. Swinley may have a few more excellent holes but Lawsonia doesn't have anything as weak as Swinley's (excluding #4) opening stretch.

I don't know how good the Green Lake Inn is and I haven't looked through all the pre-tree removal pictures, but there are few trees left on the course, mostly on the front nine in the form of a clump between the first green and fifth fairway, a few (now probably dead) ash trees in the corner of the dogleg on three, and a large oak right of the fifth fairway. The rest of the trees on the front nine are around the perimeter and shouldn't come into play. The only trees left on the back nine (at least two years ago) were some pines left of the tenth green and out-of-play perimeter trees.

[PCCraig]

Sean,


If you're anywhere close, it's certainly worth a stop.


The Green Lake Inn is a fine spot to spend the night. It's walking distance from Norton's which will give you the full Wisconsin "Supper Club" experience for dinner. The Goose Blind is a good bar in town.


In addition to tree removal, I think they are starting on some bunker work this season? One bunker at a time, though.


Enjoy!

[Buck Wolter]

Sean,


If you're anywhere close, it's certainly worth a stop.


The Green Lake Inn is a fine spot to spend the night. It's walking distance from Norton's which will give you the full Wisconsin "Supper Club" experience for dinner. The Goose Blind is a good bar in town.


In addition to tree removal, I think they are starting on some bunker work this season? One bunker at a time, though.


Enjoy!

Do not try to save a couple bucks and book the Dartford Inn  -- makes the Bates Motel look like a Four Season's (not even sure its open but they took a reservation). I also would not recommend the Boarder's in Ripon where I went next --  the bathroom was full of mold.


They were doing bunker work when I was there a month ago but it was hardly noticeable. Definitely worth the trip.