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Dave_Miller

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Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2008, 04:24:06 PM »
Wilmette GC in Illinois was built on about 85 acres but plays to 6400 yards.

I played Weston GC outside Boston this past weekend and it wasn't built on much more land.

Pat
Have played Weston on many occasions. Don't know the area but it is not in a league with Wannamoissett.  Not the best layout I have ever seen.
Dave

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2008, 05:29:07 PM »
How many acre is the Old Course at St. Andrews, if you include only the course (pretending the road right is OB

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2008, 06:50:59 PM »
Robert,on 12 you mean Beverly,not Hillcrest.I have mentioned before that the shoe shine guy at my barbershop got hit by a ball off 11 while waiting on the bus.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2008, 07:10:15 PM »
Two that I have remodeled include Cavalier Golf & Yacht Club and CCV Westhampton both on about 90-95 acres. 

It is very hard to describe how good Cavalier is.  You must see it to believe it.

Lester

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2008, 07:16:10 PM »
I believe Deal GC in NJ is on fewer than 100 acres 
pretty tight quarters, but other than 10 and 11, you rarely feel crammed

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2008, 07:23:03 PM »
How many acre is the Old Course at St. Andrews, if you include only the course (pretending the road right is OB

I suspect it isn't a lot.  However, I don't see what lessons can be learned from studying it as an exercise in routing on a small piece of land! 

How many is Kingston Heath?

hick

Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2008, 07:43:41 PM »
went by wanumetonomy in middletown today and it does not look like its much larger than 110 acres.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2008, 09:00:28 PM »
Wannamoisett isn't 90 acres...well not by measuring with

 http://www.acme.com/planimeter/

Closer to 100, not including pool etc
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:12:19 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2008, 09:07:58 PM »
How many acre is the Old Course at St. Andrews, if you include only the course (pretending the road right is OB

I suspect it isn't a lot.  However, I don't see what lessons can be learned from studying it as an exercise in routing on a small piece of land! 

How many is Kingston Heath?

Old Course - 90 acres.  You didn't think the routing was pretty special with all the gyrations in the loop and on the High green?  And the contrast of the huge fairways and suddenly scary OB right from 14 home?

I dream about that routing!  It's on the wall of my office and sometimes I just sit there and quiz myself on the names of the bunkers!

You should have perhaps spent more time contemplating the routing than worrying about Americans hanging out at the Dunvegan!

Oh never mind, just kidding.  ;)

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2008, 09:46:41 PM »
Mike,

You are correct... I meant Beverly. Ever since Mockingbird has been closed it has been extremely interesting as there are always lines of cars waiting at all the new stop signs on Beverly.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2008, 11:25:11 PM »
Somebody off 12 tee bounced one over me the other day.Too much OB ruins golf swings.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2008, 11:31:27 PM »
You should have perhaps spent more time contemplating the routing than worrying about Americans hanging out at the Dunvegan!

I have absolutely no regrets about spending more time contemplating American girls in Ma Bells than contemplating the routing!

The routing works very well, but it isn't a study in routing.  If you wanted to show a young golf course architect how to route a fine course on a tight property, you might send them to Kingston Heath or Wannamoisett.  You wouldn't send them to St Andrews.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2008, 11:35:01 PM »
....unless you had a helment factory.

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2008, 11:36:31 PM »
Haha... I concur, and there sure isn't a lack of it at DCC. I never really thought about the fact that there is either OB or water in play on every hole except t he 14th and 17th holes.

1... easy to put it on the range.
2.... I have hit way too many balls onto that road on the left.
3.... OB in play on back left pin.
4.... water forcing the layup drive.
5..... water forcing another layup
6.... I guess the OB isn't in play
7.... a little hook with the driver and I have rolled under that fence a few times
8.... OB five yards left of the fairway
9.... anything left of the left bunkers is in the hazard.
10... get the ball going a little left and it will bounce/roll into the maintenance area
11, 12, and 13... OB less than five yards right on each hole... with cars being an issue
15.... water but it shouldn't be in play
16.... again the water shouldn't be in play but I have pulled a few irons into the creek.
18. ... water again forcing a lay up off the tee

I guess this might be one of the reasons why I never seem to play the course extremely well. Get a little wild and you are in deep trouble.

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2008, 11:45:02 PM »
Ma Bells did not help my golf swing by any means.... and I had to play Carnoustie the next morning :-[ ???

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2008, 06:48:56 AM »
How many is Kingston Heath?

I can always remember someone who knows more than me referring to Kingston Heath as the best course on 90 acres in the world.

Of course, this may just be an urban myth.

Sam Morrow

Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2008, 07:46:30 AM »
Haha... I concur, and there sure isn't a lack of it at DCC. I never really thought about the fact that there is either OB or water in play on every hole except t he 14th and 17th holes.

1... easy to put it on the range.
2.... I have hit way too many balls onto that road on the left.
3.... OB in play on back left pin.
4.... water forcing the layup drive.
5..... water forcing another layup
6.... I guess the OB isn't in play
7.... a little hook with the driver and I have rolled under that fence a few times
8.... OB five yards left of the fairway
9.... anything left of the left bunkers is in the hazard.
10... get the ball going a little left and it will bounce/roll into the maintenance area
11, 12, and 13... OB less than five yards right on each hole... with cars being an issue
15.... water but it shouldn't be in play
16.... again the water shouldn't be in play but I have pulled a few irons into the creek.
18. ... water again forcing a lay up off the tee

I guess this might be one of the reasons why I never seem to play the course extremely well. Get a little wild and you are in deep trouble.

I once played with a guy who hit it so far right on 17 that he was almost in the water on 15. The kicker is that the bastard made birdie.

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2008, 09:24:39 AM »
Algonquin Golf Club in St. Louis is under 85 acres.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Thomas MacWood

Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2008, 09:53:29 AM »
The best use of 90 acres in this day and age is a nine or twelve hole golf course. It seems building great nine hole courses is a lost art...whose time may have come back.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2008, 10:37:17 AM »
Cape Arundel has not been mentioned.  Anyone know the acreage?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2008, 10:31:11 PM »
I don't understand routing very well, and couldn't pick 90 acres from 140 if I were in the middle of it, but if Kingston Heath is close to the 90 number I am astonished. What a great course...and it certainly didn't let me think it was crammed in any way.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2008, 10:35:25 PM »
A great golf course on 90 acres has everything to do with 20 yard walks to the next tee and no housing.  That's why you don't see any modern courses of quality on that kind of intimate acreage.

Ryan Chin

Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2008, 10:58:27 PM »
One of the problems with a course on small acreage is that **really** wild drivers get the occasional free pass from driving it on an adjacent fairway.

A great defense for such a property? A modest amount of topographical interest, some difficult angles of approach and small tricky slopy green complexes with bunkers tight up to greenside. That can make any course endlessly diverse. (I'm talking to you architects who build wide fairways, huge cloverleaf or tiered greens, shallow bunkers.....boring!).

Small acreage is a necessity on courses built in urban areas - well, areas that didn't used to be urban but then had the city build around them.

At my second home course at Marine Drive (previously mentioned), the routing benefits from a river on one side and that the course sits on a flood plain with a steep cliff (about 100 feet high). The cliff borders the other side of the property at an angle. Thus several holes have greens or tees benched into the hill and some holes play diagonally across or down the side of the ridge (#18, dogleg left from an elevated tee to a left-right sloping fairway at the bottom of the hill). Including practice range, it can't occupy more than 95 acres.

In some city centers, it would be great to have extra property. But one golf course was rumoured to have been offered a low nine figure sum from the city in which it resided to be rezoned and redeveloped into housing. At that price...




Andrew Bertram

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2008, 05:22:02 AM »
My understanding is that the original land for Kingston Heath is 125 acres before they purchased the land for the new practoce facility. This is still small and a wonderful use of land.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best use of 90 Acres
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2008, 01:13:30 AM »
Kyle Henderson,
It's small, but you do get a compact version of the closing holes (although 16 here is a par 4) from TPC Sawgrass at Bartley Cavanaugh GC, courtesy of Perry Dye. 

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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