Another question about Scottsdale

[Carl Nichols]

People have been very helpful in helping me figure out Arizona overseeding schedules, and I've decided to head to Scottsdale the weekend before Thanksgiving.  We'll have time for 4 rounds (though 5 might be a possibility).  We're definitely going to play both courses at We-Ko-Pa, and am curious about peoples' opinions about where else (if anywhere) to play--I'm thinking about just playing all of our golf at We-Ko-Pa, depending on other options.  [I've played Troon and Grayhawk, and am taking those off the table.]  So 2 questions:
1.  Are there other public tracks that you'd play in lieu of 2nd rounds at the two We-Ko-Pa courses? 
2.  What about on the private side?  This is not a request for access -- I'm trying to figure out whether it's worth making the effort (whether through my own club or otherwise).
Thanks in advance,
Carl

[Andy Troeger]

Carl,
I'd definitely try to fit in Vista Verde if its feasible to do so, its not that far from We-Ko-Pa anyway. After that it depends on whether you like seeing courses multiple times or seeing as many different courses as possible. Gold Canyon Dinosaur Mountain might be worth checking out, the views are incredible but the golf is not as good as Saguaro from a design standpoint.

There are quite a few nice private clubs, they might be easier to access this time of year than after New Year's.

[Doug Wright]

Carl,

Andy's call on Vista Verde is a good one. An interesting day from a GCA standpoint can be spent at Talking Stick comparing the North and South courses, which are very different styles built on the same flat desert land. Talking Stick North is the better of the two if you're only looking to play one of them. Another option is Sunridge Canyon, which also is pretty close to We-Ko-Pa.

[Jay Flemma]

If you can add Apache Stronghold, do it.  After that The South course at the Boulders is nice...expensive but nice.

Drive up to Sedona one day and play Sedona.  Maybe even overnight at Enchantment.  If you want to play one on the private side, a lot of people liked Blackstone, Jim engh's course at Vistancia.

[Mark Smolens]

If you, as a non-resident, want to save a few $$, a visit to the Champions Course at TPC is always an option -- and walking is almost encouraged there (at least the times I've played).  Far west, the Raven at Verrado used to have good deals for replays, and the food in the drink cart is outstanding (fun course, I believe Tom Lehman on design team).

7 pm Texas hold'em tournament at Ft. McDowell Casino (at WeKoPa) is a lot of fun and not very expensive. . .

[Jason Topp]

The only private course I would make much effort to play would be Desert Forest. 

I have played a modest sampling of better private courses and do not find them so unique or so much better than the public options that they are worth any hassle.

What is the current view of Sunridge Canyon?  I played it when it opened and found it beautiful, but not necessarily worth the steep prices they charged.  In fairness, that was one round a long time ago.

For a course on the day you are flying out, consider Vistal.  Close to the airport, relatively cheap and fun.

[Mark Smolens]

Jason, I had never even heard of Vistal.  I looked at their website.  Is it the old Pointe at South Mountain course?  Tell me a little bit about it. . .

Do you think you're selling Whisper Rock short?  I've never had the chance to play Desert Forest, but I enjoyed WR immensely. . . if only for the chance to hit balls on the range next to Mr. X.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Vistal is the old Thunderbird GC. It was completely renovated by the PGA Tour staff and is the home of a First Tee short course. Ron Whitten gave it a favorable review years ago but it's not online anymore. One of the good value courses in PHX. Some good views overlooking downtown and the ballpark.

The newly renovated Papago should be open in early November. I would try a look see. The bones are good there.

[Andy Troeger]

The only private course I would make much effort to play would be Desert Forest. 

I have played a modest sampling of better private courses and do not find them so unique or so much better than the public options that they are worth any hassle.

What is the current view of Sunridge Canyon?  I played it when it opened and found it beautiful, but not necessarily worth the steep prices they charged.  In fairness, that was one round a long time ago.

For a course on the day you are flying out, consider Vistal.  Close to the airport, relatively cheap and fun.

Of the sample I've played, We-Ko-Pa Saguaro actually is the first course I would choose to replay, so I agree that one could do well just staying there and playing.

I think SunRidge Canyon is a very nice course that matches up pretty well with many of the other public courses in the area. It does play through a neighborhood and the houses are definitely there but it has many good holes and some great scenery through the canyon. It is expensive, but so is We-Ko-Pa and many of the other suggestions. I definitely liked SunRidge better than Talking Stick North.

Of the private clubs I'd try Desert Highlands first myself of what I've played. The Estancia Club and Blackstone would be close behind.

[Mark Smolens]

Vistal is the old Thunderbird GC. It was completely renovated by the PGA Tour staff and is the home of a First Tee short course. Ron Whitten gave it a favorable review years ago but it's not online anymore. One of the good value courses in PHX. Some good views overlooking downtown and the ballpark.

The newly renovated Papago should be open in early November. I would try a look see. The bones are good there.

So is this the place where the young man drank water from a cooler that hadn't been cleaned, and ended up dying?  I think the Thunderbirds ended up losing the course as the result of the litigation or something like that?

[Tom Yost]

Vistal is the old Thunderbird GC. It was completely renovated by the PGA Tour staff and is the home of a First Tee short course. Ron Whitten gave it a favorable review years ago but it's not online anymore. One of the good value courses in PHX. Some good views overlooking downtown and the ballpark.

So is this the place where the young man drank water from a cooler that hadn't been cleaned, and ended up dying?  I think the Thunderbirds ended up losing the course as the result of the litigation or something like that?

That's the one. 

Last winter, Vistal overseeded only the tees and greens, allowing the fairways to go dormant.   This was more common when I first moved to Phoenix in the late 70's but fairly rare, even for munis these days.   It presented an interesting challenge - firm and fast and some quite tight lies but a fun opportunity to use the ground game to attack some of the contours.

Vistal is a walkable, core routing and is in the S. Mountain foothills so there are some elevation changes and a few views of the city.  A pretty good course with average conditioning but a truly great value, especially in high season (advertised peak rate is $68, but always better rates to be found on GolfNow)

[Matt_Ward]

Carl:

Vista Verde is a must play from the public side of the equation.

One of the more under-appreciated private layouts is Outlaw at Desert Mountain. Nicklaus and his team did a superlative job with a layout that encourages walking and doesn't have the off-course clutter (e.g. houses and the like) which often rob the real connection one wants to have when playing in the desert.

Blackstone is also a fine private layout in the greater Peoria area by Jim Engh. I'd also recommend heading to the immediate Buckeye area and playing the Tom Lehman layout The Raven at Verrado. Both courses fly a bit below the radar screen and are well worth playing.

If you have a bit of time head to nearby Wickenburg and Play Rancho de los Caballeros -  believe the layout was designed by Hardin & Nash and is one of the more underrated layouts I have ever played in AZ.

I echo the comments made about Sun Ridge Canyon -- one of the more demanding layouts especially as you play the remaining 5-7 holes -- generally all uphill and quite demanding.

[Carl Nichols]

Thanks for all of the responses -- looks like there are lots of great options.  We'll just have to decide how much time we're willing to spend driving to courses (we're staying in central scottsdale and will only be there for three days.)

[Seth Berliner]

Carl:

Vista Verde is a must play from the public side of the equation.

One of the more under-appreciated private layouts is Outlaw at Desert Mountain. Nicklaus and his team did a superlative job with a layout that encourages walking and doesn't have the off-course clutter (e.g. houses and the like) which often rob the real connection one wants to have when playing in the desert.

Blackstone is also a fine private layout in the greater Peoria area by Jim Engh. I'd also recommend heading to the immediate Buckeye area and playing the Tom Lehman layout The Raven at Verrado. Both courses fly a bit below the radar screen and are well worth playing.

If you have a bit of time head to nearby Wickenburg and Play Rancho de los Caballeros -  believe the layout was designed by Hardin & Nash and is one of the more underrated layouts I have ever played in AZ.

I echo the comments made about Sun Ridge Canyon -- one of the more demanding layouts especially as you play the remaining 5-7 holes -- generally all uphill and quite demanding.

Matt,

You might be the only one that thinks Outlaw is under-appreciated.  I, for one, think it is the least enjoyable of any of the Desert Mountain courses. There are many other Scottsdale courses that I would choose before Outlaw. 

How much does the walking factor and lack of houses factor into your review of the course?

Seth

[Matt_Ward]

Seth:

There's more to Outlaw than just the walk and on/off course scenery.

Jack designed a layout which allows for width -- something that many desert courses do not have (e.g. Desert Forest, others throughout the area, etc, etc) and they have greens which move n all sort of directions and angles without showing a sameness that is the hallmark of so many other desert courses. Shotmaking and thinking are critical needs when playing there.

Seth, I am aware of certain deficiencies with the course. The short par-4 10th hole is one that needed correction from the time I was there. I don't know if they have changed anything since because the original green was quite narrow and an approach -- either short or long -- was often doomed.

You will need to explain to me what you see as being weak or out of place with Outlaw. I don't see a few of the courses at DM as being unique (Apache and Cochise come quickly to mind). I was a huge fan of the original Geronimo layout until they made "improvements" to the original 13th and 14th holes. I am still a big time fan of Chirichua -- love the layout and question why it isn't rated even higher than it is.

Outlaw benefits from being so uniquely different than the standard fare desert layouts. There's a call for shotmaking without an overemphasis on the penal which far too often is the only recourse for so many top tier desert layouts.

I've been visiting the greater Scottsdale area for well over 20 years on a continual basis and while Outlaw is not the top layout I would personally play it is one among a number of them (say a top ten or so) that I believe allows for a broad range of players to both play the game and do so without all the disconnections (carts, housing, penal demands) that far too often intrude when playing in that unique locale.

Look forward to your comments.

[Jason Topp]

Do you think you're selling Whisper Rock short?  I've never had the chance to play Desert Forest, but I enjoyed WR immensely. . . if only for the chance to hit balls on the range next to Mr. X.

Mark:

I have never played Whisper Rock.  As I said, my sample size is not great.  The highly acclaimed private courses I have played include Estancia, Desert Highlands and a Chiricaua at Desert Mountain.  I thought the quality difference between those courses and nearby high-end public courses is pretty small, if it exists.

[Forrest Richardson]

I agree with Matt, Outlaw is a good choice. Not weak by any means. I detest a few holes, but I always find a few holes to detest...almost always. 

Oakcreek CC in Sedona is a favorite, as is Seven Canyons (also Sedona.)

I doubt Papago will see an opening this year, although so far the word is that they will still do some type of soft opening.

Some choices not mentioned here (unless I missed them): ASU/Karsten (Tempe), Troon CC (Scottsdale), Arizona Biltmore Adobe (Phoenix), Coldwater (Avondale), Wigwam Gold (Litchfield Park), and Rancho Mañana (Cave Creek).

 

[Doug Wright]

Thanks for all of the responses -- looks like there are lots of great options.  We'll just have to decide how much time we're willing to spend driving to courses (we're staying in central scottsdale and will only be there for three days.)

Carl be forewarned that if you are in Scottsdale it's a LOOOONNNGGG drive west to Peoria where courses like Raven at Verrado are located. It's even a drive to Wigwam from Scottsdale. There are plenty of local options as mentioned if you haven't played in the Scottsdale area.

[Matt_Ward]

Good call from those who also mentioned Whisper Rock. The real issue for many people will be access -- especially during peak times during the winter months.

I have not played the newer TF layout thus far and there are a few people I respect who say it is no less of equal stature to the Mickelson / Stephenson original 18.

* * *

Doug, good call to mention the length of drive time across the valley area. One needs to keep that in mind because I-10 and state highway 101 can be quite frustrating at all different times.

* * *

Forrest, would be interesting to hear what specific holes you "detest(ed)" at Outlaw? Also, how would you rate the other courses at DM? Do you see Chirichua there as one of the top ten choices you can play when in the greater Valley area?

* * *

Carl, keep in mind the further north you go the temps will change a good bit -- this applies to layouts in Prescott, Sedona and points further north of that.

* * *

[Carl Nichols]

Thanks again to everyone for all the thoughts.  We can only play Friday afternoon, Saturday, and Sunday morning, so places like Sedona or Peoria won't really work.  Right now we're planning to play 36 on Saturday at We-Ko-Pa (both Cholla and Sagauro), and then back for 18 at Sagauro on Sunday morning.   The open round is Friday afternoon; I'd like to get to Vista Verde, but it's not ideal because of the distance from the airport; I'm leaning toward Talking Stick North (partly because of location), though I may try to see if we can get on Whisper Rock (which I realize is far from the airport but sounds like it would be worth the drive). 

EDIT:  I just realized that TSN is closed 10/20-11/7 for overseeding.  Is that close enough to 11/21 to make the conditions dicey? 

[Forrest Richardson]

Matt — I played in a scramble so I cannot pinpoint the holes. One had water behind the green (9 or 18?) and there were a few volcano greens that were impossible to hold from my long distance approach. Well, not impossible, but not too accommodating — and I'm talking 3rd into a par-4 and 4th into a par-5!

Just because I was not a fan of a few holes does not make the course bad. I enjoyed it and consider it a defining course in the Nicklaus design history. Until Outlaw they had not ventured too far.

[Matt_Ward]

Forrest:

Thanks for your comments. I agree w you that Outlaw marked a very real difference in what Team Nicklaus did with the preceding courses at DM.

By the way you never mentioned if you played the other courses at the complex and how you see Chirichua stand up to the best of the best in the immediate area.

P.S. -- the aspect that makes Outlaw unique in my mind is that the total desert experience is accentuated from both a playing and visual perspective without the overwhelming sense of gloom and doom from penal style architecture. Team Nicklaus did well in providing for width and for including greens that are not going to accept just any type of shot hit into them.

Matt — I played in a scramble so I cannot pinpoint the holes. One had water behind the green (9 or 18?) and there were a few volcano greens that were impossible to hold from my long distance approach. Well, not impossible, but not too accommodating — and I'm talking 3rd into a par-4 and 4th into a par-5!

Just because I was not a fan of a few holes does not make the course bad. I enjoyed it and consider it a defining course in the Nicklaus design history. Until Outlaw they had not ventured too far.