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ChipOat

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Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2008, 07:38:41 PM »
Ah, The Emperor returns!

Tom Naccarato

Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2008, 07:58:26 PM »
Thanks Chip!

Neil_Crafter

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Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2008, 10:59:19 PM »
Tommy
Great to see you back on GCA and your Dana Point find is one of those special moments that researchers dream of. May there be many more. If I had to guess I would say that they are looking a topo map of the site, rather than a Hunter/Mackenzie concept. I wonder whether they ever got to draw a concept? From the LA Times article about it from March 13 1927, it didn't seem that they had got to that stage yet. Did the Dana Point development that Woodruff was proposing proceed?

David
I am very interested to hear about Mackenzie bidding on that project in San Diego - do you have any dates or other info from the SD historical society that could help our Timeline project? Any help gratefully appreciated.

Just a little pictorial tidbit that I found a little while back and have had nowhere really to post it, so here seems as good a spot as any! Its from a small newspaper called the Cass City Chronicle from Cass City, Michigan and its from the 3rd May 1926. It appears to have been taken in NYC, only thing is we know Mackenzie arrived in NYC on January 20 1926 on the Homeric, so why did the Cass City Chronicle run this photograph some 4 months later? This is about the time Mackenzie left the US for the UK, so perhaps they just got it muddled up and it actually was taken as he was leaving. It is a nice photo of Mackenzie, sort of smiling for a change.



Neil_Crafter

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Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2008, 11:03:57 PM »
A little bit more I found out about Woodruff's development:

DANA POINT & STILLWATER BAY

By Dennis Kaiser
Dana Point News
DANA POINT, CA-Those who walk out on the pier in Dana Point Harbor may not realize how the structure is related to a dream that was never fully realized. The first pier was built decades ago, long before the Harbor was constructed 30 years ago. In those days, the harbor was known as Stillwater Bay. The pier was the only structure that was actually completed by early Dana Point developer Sidney Woodruff.
Woodruff was famous for developing Hollywoodland. The last four letters were later dropped and the rest is, as they say, history. In Dana Point, Woodruff was developing homes based around the lantern theme for the streets along Santa Clara Boulevard. Above the harbor, however, was to be his masterpiece, the Dana Point Inn. The luxury hotel was to have such amenities as an elevator to bring guests to the beach below the cliffs. Once on the beach, Woodruff envisioned people enjoying aquaplaning, baths with a salt water plunge, a yacht club, boat moorings and the pleasure pier for fishing expeditions.
When the depression came, Woodruff was not able to complete his grand hotel. Only the pier was finished. Remnants of the partially constructed hotel are seen in the arches behind the Admiralty condominiums. (And in the cemented-up opening down at the bottom of the cliffs in the Harbor, where Woodruff's elevator was supposed to deliver his guests. Ironically, the hotel's bar - really a speakeasy - was designed to accommodate 1,500 patrons, while the hotel could only accommodate 200 over-night guests; at a time when alcohol was illegal, at the height of Prohibition. Dana Point On-Line Editor)
Woodruff, however, set the standard still followed today as the Harbor still contains a fishing pier near the site of the original pier.

SOURCE: Excerpted from the 24 June, 1999, issue of the Dana Point News, from an article entitled, "Dana Point Yesterdays: Pleasure Pier."

Tom Naccarato

Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2008, 12:45:24 AM »
Neil,
That's a great image of MacKenzie!

Dana Point is a magnificent place. Even better would be just how great it was in the beginning before the highways bisected so much dramatic land. I was talking to David Stamm on the phone the other night while on the way home from San Diego. (I was down at the Solar International 08' Trade Show) and while driving, I said, can you imagine how great this land was before the freeway/highway cut through? You see, as a young kid, I seem to remember the first times I went down to SD and the freeway couldn't have been more then two lanes on both sides. I don't remember it having guardrails either.

The land at Camp Pendleton, while not a point like Dana, surely it is the same soil mix of sandstone and some clay, and in the lower areas, rich with loam. The land between San Onofre and Oceanside has always screamed golf course; only its US Marines.

We'll eventually turn up more on Dana Point Golf Club. I can feel it. I have an army of fellow enthusiasts now, loaded for bare and ready to research. (David Stamm, Robert Ball and Jon Spalding, who we bring along for comedic relief while he ooooooss and awwwwss at the sights of things he could have never imagined he'd ever be looking for. We are about to set a date for the Ralph and others to go NLE hunting, as well as finding some facts and pictures of some elusive Scot named, William Watson.)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 12:47:52 AM by Tom Naccarato »

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2008, 07:47:15 AM »
Tommy
I think I've turned up something on where in the development the golf course was to be sited. I've found a website that is selling a number of maps and brochures, of Dana Point, supposedly originals from Woodruff. They even have letterheads from the hotel for sale! I could not see any particular reference to Mackenzie and the golf course in any of them though.

This map is of particular interest:

A map of proposed Dana Point, The new seacoast city. Midway between Los Angeles and San Diego. SH Woodruff developer. These were made by Woodruff to give to his investors, and potential property owners. 21 x 26 1/4. This is an original printed by Hollywood Blue Print Co.









The web address is http://www.e-adventure.net/Merchant2/merchant.mv?  and then do a search for Dana Point and you will see what comes up. They have 7 copies of this map alone for sale I believe.

Tommy
if you can track down any old aerials of the site this map will at least give us an idea where the golf course was planned for.
cheers Neil


Jon Spaulding

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Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2008, 09:39:12 AM »
That's a wonderful find Neil.

The site is adjacent/west to what today would be Golden Lantern, bordered by maybe Acapulco to the North & definitely Selva to the South. If you looks on that site at the large tract map you can see the southern edge of the course touching Selva. The southern part of the property is very sloped (the original Dana Dips if anyone remembers). The northern part of the property is where Dana Hills HS sits today.

Of interest is that the hotel was built on a different site.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Steve Lang

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Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2008, 10:04:09 AM »
 8) Nice to see some authentic passion for tracking the roots of america's gca, nicer to have Tom's rested and honest voice back!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

RJ_Daley

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Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2008, 10:31:50 AM »
Years ago when the original course that Dye built at the now Trump course north of there, Tommy spoke of how it was a disaster waiting to happen due to all the known fault lines, and sure enough the 18th sloughed off into the drink.  What might the status be with known faults and susceptibility to such in that Dana Pt area?  Was that any reason why certain plans didn't go through?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Allan Long

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2008, 11:02:32 AM »
Tommy,

Did you find any mention of the year the photo was taken? If not, do you have a guess?
I don't know how I would ever have been able to look into the past with any degree of pleasure or enjoy the present with any degree of contentment if it had not been for the extraordinary influence the game of golf has had upon my welfare.
--C.B. Macdonald

David Stamm

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Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2008, 11:18:34 AM »

David
I am very interested to hear about Mackenzie bidding on that project in San Diego - do you have any dates or other info from the SD historical society that could help our Timeline project? Any help gratefully appreciated.

Just a little pictorial tidbit that I found a little while back and have had nowhere really to post it, so here seems as good a spot as any! Its from a small newspaper called the Cass City Chronicle from Cass City, Michigan and its from the 3rd May 1926. It appears to have been taken in NYC, only thing is we know Mackenzie arrived in NYC on January 20 1926 on the Homeric, so why did the Cass City Chronicle run this photograph some 4 months later? This is about the time Mackenzie left the US for the UK, so perhaps they just got it muddled up and it actually was taken as he was leaving. It is a nice photo of Mackenzie, sort of smiling for a change.




I'll see if I can find it on the site. BTW, another great find good sir!
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Naccarato

Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2008, 11:29:29 AM »
Steve, Dick, Allan and all,
Thanks so much for the warm welcome back, especially all that are quoting my favorite band, ELP.

It is indeed, Welcome back My Friends To The Show That Never Ends! Lets hope it always stays that way!

Neil's find here is outstanding because this is the first I've seen of where the golf course was supposed to be. I did find an article once describing an event in the later years that was taking place at the old golf course clubhouse, and this is what was really maddening whether it really ever got built or not. We still don't have that proof! But Neil's find here is a great one. This might indeed be that map that Woodruff and MacKenzie are holding!

I still hope to see one with the Doctors undeniable hand, with golf holes drawn on it in his usual colored pencils!

Dick, This land isn't nearly like that of Palos Verdes and Portuguese Bend, where Trump is located. tht one particular area is just whacky when it comes to geographic stability. And Steve might be able to further comment on that due to it being similar to his business!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 11:32:14 AM by Tom Naccarato »

Sean_Tully

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Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2008, 03:34:44 PM »
Guys

As Tommy noted earlier I went through the Papers at UC-Irvine and turned up little to no new information on the golf course. I did see the map of which Neil has also recently found. What I can't figure out is I found a bound promotional booklet of photos of the property showing some homes and the streets all paved. To my surprise there was some photos of a golf course with golfers playing. It looks similar to what I have seen of the property, but I can't find anything that proves that the course was actually built. One idea is that they are photos of another course showing what it would look like the course was built. As to the photos I could not make out any bunkers or any other defining feature that would identify the architect or site. I hope that some information comes up that we can finally find out what happened here.

Has anyone gone through the local papers?

What is the goods on Old Man Woodruff? Where did he go to school and where did he die?

Tully

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2008, 04:29:32 PM »
Years ago when the original course that Dye built at the now Trump course north of there, Tommy spoke of how it was a disaster waiting to happen due to all the known fault lines, and sure enough the 18th sloughed off into the drink.  What might the status be with known faults and susceptibility to such in that Dana Pt area?  Was that any reason why certain plans didn't go through?

Woodruff ran into trouble with the tax man, the depression hit, and the remaining land was sold off rather quickly. Whether or not a MacKenzie course was ever built remains to be seen.

There are no faults or erosion issues where the course was to be built. It would have been a hell of a location, very exposed to the wind and playable 350 days of the year.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Mike_Cirba

Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2008, 04:48:23 PM »
Welcome back Tommy, and wonderful find.   ;D

Who is that third guy from the left?   My lord, he has the legs of a heron!   :o

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2008, 05:10:25 PM »

Who is that third guy from the left?   My lord, he has the legs of a heron!   :o

Mike, that's Robert Hunter.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mike_Cirba

Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2008, 05:26:44 PM »
David,

He must have been on a socialist's diet at the time.  ;)

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2008, 05:45:44 PM »
I don't know what a socialist who lives in Montecito would eat.....probably Lucky's or Cava.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2008, 05:53:17 PM »
Welcome back Tommy!  I am down in Florida at the Dixie Cup and your return is the talk of the event.  You'll be pleased to hear that all the chatter has been very positive, it's good to see you back here.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2008, 07:35:53 PM »
David
That would be great if you could track it down.

Sean
Thought you might have seen that map at UC Irvine as it appeared to be listed in the contents of the Woodruff records online. Interesting I think that this guy has 7 of these maps for sale, plus duplicates of a number of others. The photos you found of people playing golf could have come from anywhere as you say, and if there are no recognisable landmarks it can't be used as any proof that a golf course actually did get built.

Tommy
Apparently these maps were printed in their hundreds, thousands to give away to potential land/house purchasers, so I'd be surprised if it was one of these that they are holding in the photo. I reckon it would be a topo map. I wonder if Woodruff told Mackenzie and Hunter the area he wanted the course to go in, in advance, or whether they gave them some freedom to identify the most advantageous part of the overall site for golf, perhaps with the proviso that he didn't want the golf course on the coast.

Allan
The photo would have been taken in early March 1927, as the article below dates Mackenzie and Hunter's inspection of the site with Woodruff. This is the article that Tommy found that led eventually to him discovering the photograph. The article indicates that the fourth person in the photo is likely to be Mr L. J. Burrud of Dana Point. I wonder if the cropped photograph of Mackenzie in the LA Times article was taken the same day as Tommy's one? Likely the photographer took a series, now that would be nice to find!



Bob Jenkins

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Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2008, 07:52:07 PM »

You guys blow me away!

Unbelieveable stuff which is greatly appreciated!

Tommy, we have never met but I have had several Tommy stories told to me and look forward to meeting you some day. I was in southern California last weekend and drove around the Dana Point area which is the subject of those plans and only wish I had read this post before I was down there.

Thank you.

Tom Naccarato

Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2008, 07:54:10 PM »
Bob,
Next time your in town, please do let me know and we'll meet up for a game.  And thanks for the warm welcome back!

Matt_Davenport

Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2008, 09:10:11 AM »
<a href="http://www.historicaerials.com/?poi=2366"><img src="http://www.historicaerials.com/featuredPOIImage.aspx?poi=2366" /><br />Aerial photography from the past to the present!</a>

This is supposed to be code to get to a 1946 aerial of the Golf Course area north of the formal street grid shown on the developer's plan. 

Historic Aerials, based on their coverage area, provides some interesting comparison (side by side) for us scholastic types.  Repeat after me: "We are not warped, we are not warped..."

Allan Long

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Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2008, 11:34:58 AM »
Neil,

Thanks for adding the Times article to supplement the photo. Great stuff all. I wonder if the The Good Doctor's visit to Southern California was solely for the Dana Point visit, or if he could have indeed been looking at other projects?

If I'm not mistaken, didn't MacKenzie do work at the Lloyd and Chaplin estate courses in Beverly Hills? My guess was in the late 1920's. I wonder if the Dana Point visit or any others may have coincided?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 11:38:51 AM by Allan Long »
I don't know how I would ever have been able to look into the past with any degree of pleasure or enjoy the present with any degree of contentment if it had not been for the extraordinary influence the game of golf has had upon my welfare.
--C.B. Macdonald

Tom Naccarato

Re: From The Now It Can Be Told Department........
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2008, 11:44:58 AM »
Allan,
There were other visits, like the Golfer's Club in what is now Calabasas. 36 holes that at least one 18 got built by John Duncan Dunn; but MacKenzie wrote that he was enthused by the property.