International Society of Golf Architects - Mackenzie confirmed as the proponent

[Neil_Crafter]

The Toronto Terror includes an extract from the Canadian Golfer of September 1928,

"Dr Mackenzie is deeply interested in the formation of an International Association of Golf Architects, and while in Toronto consulted with Mr. Stanley thompson, who is strongly in favour of such an organization. All the leading golf architects in Great Britain and the States have already promised their support and the association will be launched during the next month or so."

The book then says that the organisation was never formed.

Next reference is from an advert that Ulrich Mayring posted on the Simpson - Arana thread, which is an advert for the partnership of FG Fahrenholz, Karl Hoffmann and Charles Mackenzie from the German 'Golf' magazine from November 15 1931. In it there is a reference to scale of fees of the International Society of Golf Architects. Note the slight variation on the name from the Canadian article. from this reference there is a clear reference that the organisation exists and is active at that time.

My final reference is from The Spirit of St Andrews, p 101 of the trade edition, where Mackenzie writes:

"The International Society of Golf Course Architects prohibit their members giving or receiving commissions."

Note a slightly different name again, and from the way Mackenzie talks about it, writing around 1933 or so, the organisation was in existence.

They are all the references to this organisation that I have been able to find and I am hoping that other people may have some others. And can perhaps confirm it's correct name. I suspect Mackenzie has the right name seeing he was one of the proponents of the organisation, but you never can be certain.

Was it formed in 1928? And who were its members?

[Thomas MacWood]

Simpson must have been per British Golf Illustrated in 1933 (listed as Hon. Secretary) Colt, Alison & Morrison were evidently members too. In listing their scale of charges they said they were fixed by the Int'l Society of Golf Architects (European Section). I thought MacKenzie wrote something similar in his pamphlet from the late 20s.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Thanks for those further references. So far I guess we can include the following as members:

A. Mackenzie
C. Mackenzie
F. Fahrenholz
K. Hoffmann
T. Simpson
H. Colt
C. Alison
J. Morrison
S. Thompson???

Not a bad list so far.

What about American architects? Tom, do you think "International Society of Golf Architects" was their correct name?

I've looked in what I've got of Mackenzie's promotional stuff but no mention. Could you dig your references out and email them to me if possible? Thanks.
Neil

[Thomas MacWood]

Neil
I didn't find anything in MacKenzie's pamphlet either. International Society of Golf Architects is the correct name. Guy Campbell would be a prime candidate but I couldn't find any mention with him either. I don't recall reading about any American based architects being members, in fact I'm a little surprised Thompson was a member.

[Ian Andrew]

I didn't think he was a member.

I looked for the reference - because there is one to the ISGA - but have not found it yet.

I thought the story was that he met with MacKenzie with the notion to start this association - but gave it up when the economy fell in 1929.

[Neil_Crafter]

Ian
I was only going by what the article in Canadian Golfer said, that Thompson and Mackenzie had met to discuss the formation of ISGA and that Thompson was enthusiastic, hence I pencilled him in to the list with a couple of question marks. It would be good if you could find the reference you mentioned.

The evidence appears to be that the ISGA was formed, contrary to Barclay's thoughts in TTT. How many years it lasted I don't know but it seemed to at least make it into the 1930s as the German reference is from 1931. Don't suppose Adolf was patron of the European section? If not, the organisation would have died out prior to WW1. If Mackenzie was one of its driving forces then perhaps it did not long survive after his death in 1934. All conjecture of course.

Tom, you would have thought Campbell would have been a candidate, perhaps Mackenzie Ross? Which pamphlet of Mac's are you referring to? The one with Egan?

[Thomas MacWood]

Yes, the one with Egan. I think the 15th of CPC is on the cover and a picture of the 7th at PBGL is inside.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
I've a copy of a cover of one of his brochures with 'Finality in Golf Course Architecture' and a photo of Mac standing in front of the 15th green at Cypress, and also a copy of the page with Pebble's 7th and what is clearly a combined listing of Egan and Mackenzie's projects. Do they come from the same document?

[Neil_Crafter]

Ok, I've found where Mackenzie refers to the Society, it's on his letterhead, see image below from Doak et al p 183 letter to Mr St John at OSU from January 1933. Interesting he states the name again as "International Society of Golf Course Architects" and that he is a member of the "European Section". As he had been living in the US for quite a few years by this time, one can only assume that there was no "American Section" for him to be a member of.

[Thomas MacWood]

The European section part is odd. You would think there must have been another section.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Neil,

This if fascinating to me. I can tell you that there has traditionally been a bias of ASGCA against unifying with other worldwide groups although we are making progress at working together recently.

I wonder if this bias goes back to 15 years before the formation of ASGCA, and if they formed a US section, but the US architects simply weren't ready to join, for whatever reason.

[Neil_Crafter]

Jeff
As a past president of the SAGCA and you as a past pres of the ASGCA, we both have an interest in the early roots of professional golf design and professional societies. I am surprised in some ways that so little is known about the ISGCA or ISGA that we are not even sure of its name! I'm sure there was an effort to make an American section, hence Mac's discussion with Thompson. Guess there was resistance in some quarters and so there were not enough members to make it viable.
Neil

[Jeff_Brauer]

Neil,

Our executive sommittee is meeting this week and I made them aware of this thread.  I would like all of us to know more about this group, as it seems related to the eventual formation of both societies, at least in the form of the germination of the idea. 

For some reason, I simply get the impression that the Americans felt that their problems of golf design were different than those of Europe.  Also, by seeing that AM was in the Euro section, despite living in America, I take that as perhaps some leftover resentment at the old Scots who were still plying their trade, vs the home grown boys like Raynor, Thomas, etc.

I also wonder if "amateur" architects in America, like CB, Thomas and a few others would even join a group of professional gca's?  Without some the headliners of the era, and without the Scots, it wouldn't have been much of a section.

[Thomas MacWood]

I too am surprised there isn't much information on this organization. The American golf magazines completely ignored it and I haven't found anything in the newspapers either, including The Times. My guess is British Golf Illustrated would be the place for info.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
I too have searched the UK newspapers for any mention and not a skerrick. No references in the US magazines either. Like you, I think Golf Illustrated and Golfing will be the best possible sources. I have lined up a student from the EIGCA course to do some research on Mackenzie in the British Library, primarily in these magazines. I will have him going through them issue by issue looking for Mackenzie references and photographs of his courses and will also warn him to look out for references to the ISGCA/ISGA.

Jeff
That is a good thing. I'm sure the Americans felt differently about the issues of golf design than the Brits, and I can't see the 'amateur' architects of the US wanting to join a society with the 'professionals', assuming of course the professionals wanted anything to do with it. Tillinghast would seem to me the sort of person who would have supported an American section - I wonder if Phil Young has ever found any mention? Phil?

[Neil_Crafter]

Finally found something nice, not a long reference but one that would seem to confirm that Mackenzie was the driving force behind the creation of the ISGCA/ISGA. This clipping is from Kingston, New York local paper of Feb 27 1929.



I wonder who are the 20 architects he was referring to?

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Neil,

With the ASGCA, SAGCA and EIGCA, you would think that there were quite enough GCA Society's or Associations. But should you live in China, Malaysia, Singapore, Russia, South Africa, Timbucktwo, and dare I include New Zealand, what association should these geographic golf course architecture outcasts join? Perhaps Mackenzie's International Society?

Do you think this organisation should be resurrected? Could it be?

scott

[Neil_Crafter]

Scott
Don't forget the Japanese society either, that is quite a large one with a sizable number of Japanese members. Our SAGCA is voting this November on a proposal to establish an 'International' category of membership for those who might wish to join but are not Australians. We have a few interested, as we discussed a while back.

As for Mac's ISGCA, I can't see it getting resurrected but I'd sure like to know more about it.

[Ian Andrew]

Neil,

First off - well done with your research. I'd love to see the list of 20.

I know I would be interested in an International Society of Golf Course Architects.
The "jackets" have to be a damned site better!

Sounds like I may see you next November if everything works out as planned.

[Neil_Crafter]

Appreciate that Ian.
Fortunately we have no jackets in the SAGCA, just a cruddy tie.
And that would be terrific if you can come on the joint EIGCA/ASGCA trip out to Australia in Nov 2009 - I'll look forward to meeting you then.

[Bob Jenkins]

Neil,

I had a hunch that the ISGA may have been organized and incorporated in Canada, considering Thompson's involvment and the meeting of him and Mackenzie in Toronto in about 1930. I asked a lawyer friend in Toronto to check all Ontario incorporations and federal incorporations and they drew a blank.

On seeing the clip most recently posted by you, if Mackenzie put it together and was living in New York about that time, it may have been incorporate in NY State. It should be simple for one of our members to check through the state records to see if any organization with that name was ever incorporated there.

Bob

[Neil_Crafter]

Bob
Thanks for checking out the Canadian side of things, but I'm not too surprised you didn't find anything.
Mackenzie was not a NY resident, he lived in a home he built overlooking the 6th fairway at Pasatiempo, Santa Cruz CA. So if it ever did get legally incorporated, CA may have been the place, but I think it is more likely it was based in England.

[Christoph Meister]

Next reference is from an advert that Ulrich Mayring posted on the Simpson - Arana thread, which is an advert for the partnership of FG Fahrenholz, Karl Hoffmann and Charles Mackenzie from the German 'Golf' magazine from November 15 1931. In it there is a reference to scale of fees of the International Society of Golf Architects. Note the slight variation on the name from the Canadian article. from this reference there is a clear reference that the organisation exists and is active at that time.

Hello Neil,

below you find another scan of the advert Ulrich Mayring has pointed out to you - this time it's from the yearbook of the German Golf Federation for 1931 - this yearbook was usually prepared late in 1930 / early 1931....just to give you a more exact idea about the date....I am really curiouse what else you find out about this early International Society of Golf Architects - the archives of Dr. von Limburger do not make a reference to this organisation..but I will keep you updated in case I find something....

Best regards from Germany

Christoph Meister

[Tom_Doak]

Scott / others:

There is also a Japanese Society of Golf Course Architects (I think I have the name right).  Somehow I got on their mailing list, which is interesting because nearly everything is written in Japanese!  I don't think they were formed until the 1960's or 1970's, but at one time they had 30+ members; they have been struggling to keep it going over the past 5-10 years.

[BCrosby]

Perhaps I missed something, but why would an architect join an association that prohibited him from charging design fees?

Bob