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Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2008, 12:41:05 PM »
At the most basic level,  golf is all about hitting a ball with a stick, and watching it go. I remember my kids really catching one for the first time, and when they turned to me to make sure I was watching, I could see the joy in their eyes. It's an introduction to the game that we all may be able to remember. To me it's the beginning of the how the spirit of the game grabs you. There's no other ball game I can think of where the ball goes so far. When I hear someone talk about Mickey Mantle's mammoth 634-foot home run, it crosses my mind that even a high-handicapper like myself regularly hit longer shots.

And then you get to take that elemental joyful experience alone, out onto the biggest, most varied, most natural playing field in all of sport. And obviously both the singular "alone-ness" of the game and the marvelous venues for golf are huge components of the game's spirit. And then there are the rules that direct the game, and the way they put ultimate responsibility for following them on the player - focusing the spirit of the game on self-reliance, self-respect, and respect for playing partners and competitors.

And if you find that the behaviour of others is a sign of some diminishment in the spirit of the game, then talk to those players. Attempt to educate them. As those ads on television so eloquently say - almost doing something is the same as not doing something. Grow the spirit of the game by spreading it through your own actions.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2008, 01:15:27 PM »
For me the spirit of the game is captured best by my 65 year old father making an audible wincing sound when his 42 year old son misses a shot.
 

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2008, 01:33:16 PM »
This notion of a "Spirit" of the game is what scares young golfers away.  Even the romanticism of victory has been lost by our modern champions.  A game of poetic intimacy has been replaced with Viagric GHB.  Young men prefer virtual golf in a bar to a pleasant walk with friends.  And if they don't, they would never say in any certain terms.  Golf and monochromatic heterosexuality do not mix in our society of the young.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2008, 01:43:16 PM »
You're full of it.


Anthony Gray

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2008, 02:15:12 PM »
   


   John....the young do have less of an appreciation of the game, perhaps because they know less about the history of the game.


   Huck...I ask for the liberty to refer to you as Huck... I understand that the same spirit can exsist wiyh or without carts, yardage guides, lasers etc. ....But the same artistry of the game cannot.



    Melvyn and Tom Doak...Do you see a difference  between The Spirit of the Game and the artistry of the game.





Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2008, 05:03:29 PM »
melvyn...

you have to design in harmony of nature... but you're playing against it..

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2008, 09:21:50 PM »
Anthony:  The artistry of the game exists on many levels ... from design to turf maintenance to ballstriking.  But, you don't have to be very good at any of those to understand the spirit of the game.  It is harder to love the game if you're really no good at it, but I have met people who do.

Tom Huckaby

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2008, 09:24:35 PM »
Gentleman:

My only concern in this is that I believe there are many ways to connect to a spirit in the game, and it concerns me when anyone dogmatically suggests that there is only one.

So... of course I prefer to walk a course, unfettered by modern trappings of the game.  I've achieved golf spirituality in this manner for sure.  It's easy to do in Scotland and the UK.  But I've also achieved it playing out of a cart, fiddling with the GPS device, and using clubs that would make Tiger Woods blush.  To me it's about one's behavior and what he brings to the game and takes from it far more than it is about the devices he uses.

So Tom Doak, you're right - it's tougher to learn to connect to the game's spirit when all one knows are these modern conveniences.  Still I do not believe it's impossible.  I put a lot of stock in the actions described in John V's post... as well as other things.

Bottom line to me remains that presentation of one way and one way only to connect to the game's spirit misses the point of what that spirit is really all about.

And please, do not paint me as some supporter of bad behavior and the other things and those who dislike modern devices assume automatically comes with them.  I find these things as abhorrent as you do.

Just don't tell me because I sometimes play out a cart or look at yardages and you do not, you are more connected to the game's spirit than I am.  Because you might be, you might not, but for sure one way or  the other the reason won't be because of use or non-use of these modern devices.

TH

ps - Anthony, you can all me whatever you wish.  But Huck is my Dad more than it's me.

Anthony Gray

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2008, 09:38:20 AM »
   

   The Spirit of the Game is always present when you are playing amongst friends and gentlemen.

    But factors exsist that make the spirit stronger. A natural isolated course that has not been manufactured has a stronger spirit. A foursome of gentlemen golfers has a stronger spirit.Conceding the final putt. And respecting the opinions of members of the fraternity.




   

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2008, 09:57:28 AM »
   
John....the young do have less of an appreciation of the game, perhaps because they know less about the history of the game.


Hasn't golf always been a bunch of guys out hitting the ball representing the social mores of their day.  During my youth I paid the Pro, fellow golfers, teachers and Priest the same amount of respect on the golf course as off.  I was never asked to change upon the entrance of some mystical gate.  I'm seeing a different situation today as we ask or expect different standards of young golfers on the course and out in public.  Is the separation today between actual societal civility and expected golfing civility greater than at any time in history?  How can we expect young golfers to find this so called spirit if we do not allow them to relax in their environment first?  You dress up to pray to spirits, you dress down to drink spirits and you dress like your friends to find a common spirit of compadre.  For the youth of today you will find much more "spirit" as defined by Huck on a basketball court, MMA pay-per-view or at the poker table because at these events they are allowed to be themselves as opposed to being a reflection of some forgotten moment in history. 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 10:05:40 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Anthony Gray

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2008, 10:17:20 AM »
   
John....the young do have less of an appreciation of the game, perhaps because they know less about the history of the game.


For the youth of today you will find much more "spirit" as defined by Huck on a basketball court, MMA pay-per-view or at the poker table.

  John,
 
  THe youth of today have a much greater knowledge of basketball than golf. The core of golf is much deeper than other sports. I place no greater requirement on youth than I do myself. Did you see the way Kevin Garnett embraced Bill Russell during the NBA finals. Yogi Berra's reception at Yankee Stadium. Tiger Woods Did not even acknowledge Jack's presence when he walking of the 18th at TOC. The youth need to enjoy the game, have fun, and be themselves. But be taught the history and traditions and spirit of the game.



John Kavanaugh

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2008, 10:22:52 AM »
Anthony,

Are you saying that Tiger does not respect the history of the game when compared to the likes of Kevin Garnett or Yankee Fans?  What can possibly be gained by teaching golf history to young golfers?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2008, 10:32:11 AM »
Anthony

In my book The Spirit of the Game is completely different to the Artistry of the Game. I feel the Spirit is harder to understand whilst the artistry is avail to all who preserver. That is if I understand your meaning of Artistry.

I must be careful as I do not want to upset others for not fully understand
my meaning. Artistry in my book refers to achieving a certain degree of mastery/proficiency in the game, this being due to perseverance and much practice. This can be obtained without understand or absorbing the Spirit of the Game and for me that Spirit originated on the Links of Scotland i.e. Prestwick, St Andrews, Musselburgh etc. It is not limited to our shores but anywhere in the world that plays the game in this manner.

I simply cannot understand how anyone can embrace the true Spirit of the Game when using a cart or artificial distance aid/marker. The very fact of using these aids removes the player from being one with the course which surely must minimise the affect. But then that is only my opinion and you have every right to disagree.

Hope that answers your question?

Tom Huckaby

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2008, 10:33:46 AM »

I simply cannot understand how anyone can embrace the true Spirit of the Game when using a cart or artificial distance aid/marker. The very fact of using these aids removes the player from being one with the course which surely must minimise the affect. But then that is only my opinion and you have every right to disagree.

Obviously I disagree, for reasons already stated.

But this is MUCH better, Melvyn.  Simple disagreement is very fine.  Dogmatic preaching is what brings out the beast.

 ;)

Anthony Gray

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2008, 10:54:02 AM »
Anthony,

Are you saying that Tiger does not respect the history of the game when compared to the likes of Kevin Garnett or Yankee Fans?

   John,

    He respects. But does he embrace? Will he ever design a course that you and I can play? Design a course that he could play when he was a child?


 

Anthony Gray

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2008, 10:59:06 AM »
Anthony,

What can possibly be gained by teaching golf history to young golfers?

    THE FUTURE



John Kavanaugh

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2008, 11:06:04 AM »
Anthony,

Are you saying that Tiger does not respect the history of the game when compared to the likes of Kevin Garnett or Yankee Fans?

   John,

    He respects. But does he embrace? Will he ever design a course that you and I can play? Design a course that he could play when he was a child?


 

Does Tiger embrace history...the man felches history.  Of course he will build courses that you and I can play.  Of course he will design courses that he could play as a child, hell he will design courses my grandmother could have played as a child.  I am at complete loss at your reasoning and have to question what possible motive a gentleman golfer, such as yourself, would have by the opinions you have formed against Tiger's love of the game, its past and its future.  It is safe to say that no single man in the history of the game has seen the depth of shot failure and creation as Tiger over his lifetime.  Tiger attended Stanford, knows how to set and reach goals, has a history of surrounding himself with the very best people possible, has unlimited funds and access to the very best sites in every part of the world....I do not see how or why the man would fail.


« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 11:10:20 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Anthony Gray

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2008, 11:15:48 AM »
 

  John,

  My observations are that I have not seen Tiger embrace the greats of the past like those that preceeded him. To date his first three designs have been for the ultra rich. Please do not read enything more into this. These are factual observations not opinions.




 

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2008, 11:25:34 AM »
 

  John,

  My observations are that I have not seen Tiger embrace the greats of the past like those that preceeded him. To date his first three designs have been for the ultra rich. Please do not read enything more into this. These are factual observations not opinions.


Besides Creshaw please give an example of what you are talking about.  Competitors do not count as Tiger has never had to compete against a great of the past like Nicklaus was so fortunate to have.  Do you think Tiger blew off Byron Nelson or something?

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2008, 11:37:36 AM »
 

  John,

  My observations are that I have not seen Tiger embrace the greats of the past like those that preceeded him. To date his first three designs have been for the ultra rich. Please do not read enything more into this. These are factual observations not opinions.




 


???

Anthony - two items

You think Earl Woods taught Tiger anything other than respect for the game??

When Tiger first moved to Isleworth - he spent a lot of time in the video room at the Golf Channell looking at the clasic courses to educate himself. I would say we are a little judgmental on Tiger's if we commenting on who he provided his first design services to.

BTW - Who was Jack's first design customer??
Integrity in the moment of choice

Anthony Gray

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2008, 12:18:21 PM »


  John and John,

  In the 2000 Open Jack was walking off 18 when Tiger was on the first. He looked away period. You never see photos of Tiger with others like photos of KG with Bill Russell, Jack with Bobby Jones. Not to be judgemental of Tiger but KG and Bill Russell embracing honors the past. Maybe Tiger has embraced Arnie, Jack and others but you do not see it publically as in the case of Garnett and Russell.


  Jack's first design? Help me.....Harbour Town?......open to the public.



Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2008, 12:24:35 PM »
Tiger kind of annoys me on some levels, just because of the power he wields over the sport, and sometimes in the choices he makes. But to assert that he acts in some way that is counter to the spirit of the game throws me a bit. We're talking about THE GAME, not the business of the game, or the business of the pro game, or the business of, frankly, golf course architecture. All of those things are part of the game, but not central to its spirit, in my humble opinion.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Michael

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2008, 01:03:47 PM »
To me the spirit of golf begins long before I even get to the course.

 I look around at all the things I've collected...scorecards  (good and bad)...golf balls with scores written on them from tournaments years ago.

Pictures of foursomes.. all laughing..shots of my sons at 9 and 19...

Anthony Gray

Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2008, 01:37:39 PM »


  John and John,

  In the 2000 Open Jack was walking off 18 when Tiger was on the first. He looked away period. You never see photos of Tiger with others like photos of KG with Bill Russell, Jack with Bobby Jones. Not to be judgemental of Tiger but KG and Bill Russell embracing honors the past. Maybe Tiger has embraced Arnie, Jack and others but you do not see it publically as in the case of Garnett and Russell.


 


  I am not saying it is Tiger's obligation to do these things, but it would be nice to see and would aid the spirit of the game.



John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spirit of the Game
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2008, 01:47:25 PM »

 Jack's first design? Help me.....Harbour Town?......open to the public.


Anthony - Correct - Harbor Town - A developoment where he was brought in to sell something perchance??
Integrity in the moment of choice