Carters, Suttons, et al

[Thomas MacWood]

Mr. MacWood:

And I strongly recommend that you read those "agronomy letters" if you want to familiarize yourself with that world in that business at that time.

Frankly, I'm pretty well past being sick of listening to you tell me and others on here what you know, what you've found, and what the rest of us don't have or don't know. It seems to me whenever you get interested in learning about some subject or area, some architect or golf course you just automatically assume noone else but you knows anything about it. I realize how much you want to make a name for yourself as what you've referred to yourself as an "expert researcher" ----but come on, use your head would you please---eg some of the rest of us weren't exactly born yesterday on understanding most of these areas and I don't think any of us have just been sitting around in the wings waiting for you to come along and discover these things and inform us on them! 

This I believe both was and is your fundamental problem in failing to understanding the details of the design history of Merion (and probably Myopia too)----eg you found some article or two on Macdonald advising the club and you thought you'd made some theretofore UNKNOWN discovery. The fact that Merion had those articles probably since the day they were published in those newspapers apparently never even occured to you!   

Really, come on, you need to just stop being so damn competitive all the time with some of the rest of us (particularly here in Philadelphia) and learn to start collaborating better. I think you'd be very surprised how and how much we can help you understand some of these things as you begin to develop an interest in some of these subjects.

In that vein, how is that silly "PLEDGE" of yours coming along? 

TE
I have read the letters and have copies of the ones I thought were important. Although I have pledged not help you or anyone associated with you it doesn't mean I can't give you hints. I strongly advise you follow up on my advise.

[TEPaul]

"TE
I have read the letters and have copies of the ones I thought were important. Although I have pledged not help you or anyone associated with you it doesn't mean I can't give you hints. I strongly advise you follow up on my advise."


Mr. MacWood:

With your constant and continuous remarks like that one which exhibits your inherent arrogant bullshit and laughable competitiveness so very well with some of us, noone on this website should ever wonder why some of us insult you and probably always will as long as you keep stuff like that up.   
 
In my opinion, you have so much to learn in the general area of golf architecture, its history and evolution and fundamentals it is truly breathtaking. One way you may begin to overcome that is to get out of your Ivory Tower and your old newspapers and magazines and get out there into clubs and project sites and begin to learn something.

Burying your head in old books and magazines and newspapers is certainly one thing and it is important but there is a whole lot more out there to learn about all this. I doubt you're ever going to figure that out though. Afterall, how long has this been on here---ten years or so?? Get on with it---none of us, including you, are getting any younger you know! 
 
 
 

[TEPaul]

"TE
Wasn't the experimental station at Arlington modeled after Suttons'?"


I do not know that. All I can tell you is the US Dept of AGRICULTURE's experimental station in Arlington Virginia was there and operating before golf course agronomy came Piper and Oakley's way or the US government's way! 

Eventually Oakley began to refer to himself and sign his letters as "agronomist" and Piper began to refer to himself and sign his letters as "Agrostologist". 

Do you have any idea what the latter meant? 


Do you think there's a possiblity that H.H. Barker or Willie Campbell designed the ORIGINAL Arlington Virginia experimental station??

[BCrosby]

Suttons certainly contributed to the literature of golf architecture, sponsoring a number of very good collections of essays on gca and gc agronomy.

Most of what I have read by Colt I found in Suttons collections.

Bob

[TEPaul]

What I'd like to know with a seed company like Suttons is exactly where and when and how the company first became involved in seed for grass specifically dedicated to or developed for golf. I don't know it but something tells me it may've begun for them in the English heathlands maybe in the 1890s. Certainly the company had been involved in developing and transporting seed for other things for perhaps 3/4 of a century before golf or golf architecture even began comprehensively planting golf courses with seed or grass.

[BCrosby]

If Tony is researching the UK seed companies, a parallel US research topic would be to look into US companies that developed and sold Bermuda grass in the SE at the turn of the last century.

Golf would not have been possible in the SE without Bermuda grass, a non-native species that was first imported from North Africa (though I've heard there might be SE Asian sources) and developed in the US for lawn and turf uses.

Bob

[Thomas MacWood]

Bob
I never even thought about the Bermuda trade in the South. It seems like the British seed mechants' acitivities were concentrated mostly in the North. Who did Ross use at Pinehurst?

[BCrosby]

Tom -

I don't know who Ross used. A number of companies advertised in the golf mags early on. But until this thread I never thought to pay them much attention.

I know that by the 20's the Tift Seed Company (not sure of the exact name) in Tifton, GA was the major supplier of seeds, sprigs and hybrids. Until the recent rise of ultra dwarfs, they dominated the market in the SE. Perhaps some SE supers can add to that or correct me.

It would be an interesting topic to research.

Bob 

[Tony_Muldoon]

What I'd like to know with a seed company like Suttons is exactly where and when and how the company first became involved in seed for grass specifically dedicated to or developed for golf. I don't know it but something tells me it may've begun for them in the English heathlands maybe in the 1890s. Certainly the company had been involved in developing and transporting seed for other things for perhaps 3/4 of a century before golf or golf architecture even began comprehensively planting golf courses with seed or grass.

From the post I wish you’d read.

This is a big subject.  These were huge firms selling all kinds of seeds, for agriculture, for gardening and from the start of the last century for Golf. Ironically the types of grass seed they were originally interested in were to produce thick lush grass for cattle to graze and grow fat on.  Not ideal for golf. By 1852 Suttons had 54 separate mixtures on Sale.

Apparently it started with Carters at Walton Heath. Suttons were the bigger firm but slow to realise how big Golf was becoming.


Suttons entered the field properly with Colt in 1909.


There’s a lot to find out.

Suttons as a firm date from 1806, Carters got involved with Walton Heath about 1903.

[TEPaul]

Tony Muldoon:

Thanks for those specific entry dates for Carters and Sutton's into golf seed. I guess that explains why Macdonald and Wilson initially turned to the US Dept of Agriculture for advice and experimentation on grass. Both probably bought from seed merchants but it seems they got Piper and Oakley to help analyze it and also to do experimentation on how to best manage and maintain it. But the seed merchants were not the only place they were getting seed.

[Neil_Crafter]

Cover and page from Carters The Practical Greenkeeper, this is the US edition I believe, photos from PBA galleries website

[Thomas MacWood]

Neil
That is one of the better pictures of Detroit I've seen. There aren't a lot of good pictures of that NLE golf course. What year do you think that booklet dates from?

[Paul_Turner]

I'll second that.  Neil good find.  Old pics of DCC are rare.

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks guys
Totally unknowing I must say as I had no idea whether pics were common or uncommon of Detroit. I did see this course a few years ago when in Detroit for the Ryder Cup (watching that is). It had been Trent Jonesed at some point I believe.

Here's the listing information.

Author:   Beale, Reginald
Title:   The Practical Greenkeeper
Place:   New York
Publisher:   Carters Tested Seeds
Date:   No date [c. 1930's]
Item # :   162003
Description:
48 pp. Illustrated from photographs and other reproductions. 10x7½, original green wrappers, front cover with silver-stamped vignette, lettered in black. "Fourth American Edition."
Scarce seed and turf management booklet, with numerous images from various golf events at different golf clubs, including one of Brookline, Massachusetts: showing the first example of permanent English turf produced from seed in the United States. James Carter & Company was a well-known seed company, and was appointed the official seedsmen to the King. Harold L. Evans copy with his signature on the title page.
Condition:
Some rubbing, edge wear, covers a bit loose (starting to separate from upper staple); contents clean and intact; else very good overall.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Not seen that one Neil so I can't help with the date.
In other deitions they claim the Country Club pictures capture a very special moment in time. has anyone ever seen these images before?


 




I have uncovered a whole bunch of stuff but I'm short of time now and it needs a lot of sorting (and better photography). So I will keep my powder dry until I know more.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood said:

“TE
It would probably be a good idea to familarize yourself with the individuals who were involved with Carters and the other outfits, and then go through those letters again and check your club records again. I think you will be surprised what you find.

Wilson, Piper, Oakley and Macdonald were all intimately familar with the grass merchants and their construction arm. That is what I was getting at in my previous post, I strongly believe if you don't know what was transpiring in the previous years and you're not familiar with all the names its only natural you are going to miss things.”





Tony  Muldoon said;

“Apparently it started with Carters at Walton Heath. Suttons were the bigger firm but slow to realise how big Golf was becoming.
Suttons entered the field properly with Colt in 1909.”



Mr. MacWood:

Firstly, I’d like to determine when not only seed companies like Carters and Sutton FIRST got involved in providing seed to comprehensively seed golf courses but also when those seed companies FIRST got into providing crews to projects for CONSTRUCION of projects, particularly in America.

You mentioned in your remarks above that you ’strongly believe’ this was transpiring in the years previous to Piper and oakey’s connection to Macdonald and Wilson. I believe Piper and Oakley became involved with Macdonald by 1909, at least, and I know they became involved with Wilson on Feb. 1, 1911.

If Tony Muldoon is correct with his dates in his remarks I quoted above I really don’t see what those previous years you mention you strongly believe were, at least in America.

It would probably be appropriate to construct a more detailed timeline before you mention you "strongly believe" something like that and then tell me I need to familiarize myself with it.

What courses in America were Carters and Suttons providing construction crews for BEFORE Macdonald and Wilson began their projects of NGLA and Merion East in which they consulted with Piper and Oakley?

[Thomas MacWood]

It would probably be appropriate to construct a more detailed timeline before you mention you "strongly believe" something like that and then tell me I need to familiarize myself with it.

Agreed.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

If you say you strongly believe the seed merchants were providing construcution crews for projects BEFORE Piper and Oakley became involved in golf agronomy via NGLA and Merion then what were those projects you strongly believe the seed merchants were involved with BEFORE that time? You said I should familiarize myself with this or those projects. I'm not aware of them or what they were. Are you? If so what were they? If you're not aware of them why did you say you strongly believe the seed merchants were involved in the construction of architecture, particularly in America, before that time? 

[Thomas MacWood]

Again...you need to re-read Tony's posts.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

I've read Tony's posts. I think it is you who needs to rethink some of your original statements on this thread. They seem to be fairly "half-cocked", as usual, particularly to do with their historical timing or timelining!

I'm definitely not going to sugar-coat it or deny it----eg you and I have a certain dynamic going about the information and assumptions, premises or even conclusions we produce on this website----but after-all, this is what this website should be all about at it's best! This site is all about really in-depth historical analysis and discussion.

Furthermore, Tony Muldoon both can and does speak for himself and his research.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
I don't know what you are referring to as my original statement. The role of seed merchants in golf architecture is not new and is well documented (its not in the text of C&W so perhaps that is what has thrown you). Clearly you are behind the curve on this subject, and should probably get together with your chief researcher Wayne Morrison, I think he may be able to shed some light on the subject. As you know I've made a pledge.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:


Your so-called "PLEDGE" is something I will unabashedly continue to mock on this website and why wouldn't I or why shouldn't I? It not only shows real pettiness on your part, I believe it is frankly nothing much more than a convenient COVER whereby you feel you don't need to back up some of the things you say on here (ex. Campbell and Myopia) because you realize you have nothing to back them up with!! Your ridiculous methods on here in this vein are just so transparent but apparently you may be the last to recognize that! 



"TE
I don't know what you are referring to as my original statement."


What I meant by that I already put on here a number of times but as per usual you continue to ignore it.

The question is what projects over here were Carters and Sutton involved in providing construction crews for IN THE YEARS BEFORE Piper and Oakley became involved with Macdonald at NGLA and the Wilsons at Merion?

Is that really so hard for you to understand or is your statement that you don't understand the question just another one of your attempts to avoid explaining the things you say on here? You told me I need to familiarize myself with those projects in the years BEFORE Piper and Oakley got involved. If that's what you 'STRONLY BELIEVE'  why are you having a problem explaining what they were? Do you have a problem trying to explain what you "STRONLY BELIEVE"? It would certainly seem so!

Or, I guess the next logical question would be----do you even understand what "time-lining" means?

[TEPaul]

Furthermore, Mr. MacWood, as to the roll the development of golf agronomy (seeding and obviously seed merhants) played in the development of golf course architecture, that is a subject I've been into on this website for a couple of years now. The back pages of this website are filled with it. Just ask Peter Pallotta or perhaps Bradley Anderson. Maybe you just missed it as you seem to miss so much of the details of discussions on this website.

And frankly, why wouldn't you? After-all you did admit on this website that you really can't be bothered to read posts that are more than a paragraph or two!   

Clearly it shows, don't you think?   

[TEPaul]

Who knows what the first golf course was that was comprehensively seeded or what we know today as "grown in?"

When and where did that begin to happen and why?

In my opinion, that seems to me to be a really fundamental question in the history of golf and certainly golf architecture, and most certainly it would be fundamental to the history and evolution of golf agronomy.

Was it Sunningdale or perhaps Huntercombe? Was it a course inland? Something tells me looking at the history and evolution of golf and architecture it would have to have been inland and probably near the very end of the 1890s or the beginning of the 20th century.

And just think what that must have meant back then compared to the way things were done before it. Was this when some real earth moving began to take place too and when golfers and those involved in the creation of courses first came to understand that for this whole thing to improve it was really going to take more time and more effort and more money than had ever been used before in the incipient world of golf course architecture----at least of the truly man-made variety?

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Are you going to try to provide some facts and evidence in the way of projects that Carters or Sutton contributed crews to BEFORE Piper and Oakley got into golf agronomy that you said you strongly believed and that I should be familiar with? Or are you going to just conveniently let that statement of yours that the seed merchants were doing that years before Piper and Oakley involvement in golf agronomy slide into the back pages? Is it actually possible that you're not aware of any facts or evidence on that score?

If so, that would be nice to know too.