NYC off the course architecture - The Modern Clubhouse

[Mike Sweeney]

http://www.metgolfer-digital.com/metgolfer/200810/?u1=texterity

You have to page through to the second article or go to contents and find "In With The New" on local clubhouses. First article is about NYC public golf.

Interesting contrast between the new clubhouses around New York in the Metgolfer this month. Friar's Head is not included but Bayonne, The Bridge, Sebonack and Liberty National are listed.

My choice is Bayonne. I like the Coast Guard look to it.

[John Kavanaugh]

I prefer The Bridge because it does not attempt to be something it is not.  A haven for old money.  The architecture of Sebonack screams anti-semitism, Liberty national looks like a cheap community college and Bayonne is as faux Newport as the course is faux links.

[Mike Sweeney]

The architecture of Sebonack screams anti-semitism,

I am assuming it has something to do with the timing of today, but I do have to ask how you got to that point.

[John Kavanaugh]

It is the period of that architecture as it was originally built in the Hamptons.  It just doesn't look like a place where you would have held a bar mitzvah in the early 60's.  It feels to me like a harkening back to a more exclusionary time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It is the period of that architecture as it was originally built in the Hamptons. 

It just doesn't look like a place where you would have held a bar mitzvah in the early 60's. 

How would you know ?

How many Bar or Bat Mitzvahs did you attend in the early 60's ?

It feels to me like a harkening back to a more exclusionary time.

Another wildly absurd statement.

Why don't you take a look at the Atlantic Golf Club clubhouse, which has a really "Hampton's" look and feel to it.

Lowell Schulman and his fellow founding members, 99 % Jewish, were responsible for creating it.

No one, I repeat, NO ONE at Atlantic feels that their clubhouse represents exclusionary times.

It's a great, functional, low key club house with that real "Hamptons" look and feel.

NGLA's clubhouse is quite unique and doesn't resemble anything architecturally connected with the Hamptons.

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

I said the Sebonack clubhouse looks to represent a more exclusionary time.  The clubhouse at The Bridge is exactly the opposite of what I would call Protestant.

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a pic of the Atlantic clubhouse.  You may note how a darker palate is used and the building reacts with nature instead of against it.  It is not even close to the same feeling as Sebonack.

http://www.harthowerton.com/portfolio/atlantic_golf.html

[Steve Lapper]

A few points:

1) The absence of Friars Head's new & beautiful clubhouse relegates this discussion to a show of the second-place entries. Friars has elegance, architectural beauty and most importantly, a comfortable dimensional fit in relation to the course and it's surroundings. It maximizes both it's location and grandeur and the interior design exceeds most of the others.

2) John....some of us may bristle (or cherish) your fondness for antagonism, but giving an architectural style that has dominated a region for eras the description of "screaming anti-semitism" is both unsupportable and no less than slightly offensive. Perhaps such a badge of bigotry is not a reflection of your individual view(s), but the mere suggestion of ascribing a "lighter colored" Hamptons-style saltbox/savannah as anti-Semitic can only serve to fan the fires of of ignorance, intolerance and religious racism. In simpler terms....it's just plain a STUPID thing to say.
   Sebonack has a good number of Jewish members, is relatively non-discriminatory, and I doubt a single one of their members would share any part of your perspective on their clubhouse!

3) The clubhouse at Bayonne, while certainly borrowing from the Newport CC look, is a beautiful building placed on a strategic promontory that enables  a 360 degree outlook over the property and the surrounding views (varying from spectacular to industrial). The interiors are a bit too dark and almost medieval for some tastes, but the place works very well.

[John Kavanaugh]

My choice of words was poor.  I have no idea what the face or anti-semitic architecture is or was during the exclusionary times of our past.  I should have called the architecture of the Sebonack clubhouse Hyper-Protestant. 

[Sam Maryland]

the best pic in there is the reno'd Pelham clubhouse interior...I'm blown away by that.  have to get back up there to check that out.

SM

[Adam Jeselnick]

Did anyone else notice that the Bayonne clubhouse bears some resemblance to a certain, famous British Isles resort?

I think there is a danger to relating the architectural style of a secular building to a particular religious faith, much less a specific denomination.  The cultural influences underlying a certain design style would seem to be a much more intriguing topic for this group.  I am especially interested to hear about how the architecture of the clubhouse might compare (or contrast) with the course architecture of these golf clubs... i.e., does a modern golf course design dictate a contemporary building?

As an architect (building), I could not resist making this my first post... looking forward to joining the treehouse.
-AJ

[Tom_Doak]

John: 

I was perplexed by your view of the Sebonack clubhouse, particularly since it was designed by the same architect as Atlantic's clubhouse -- the late Michael Cunningham, of Hart Howerton.

I wonder if Rabbi Gelman has the same view?  I doubt it.  He gave the invocation at the groundbreaking ... his TV show is syndicated by Mr. Pascucci's TV station on Long Island.

[John Kavanaugh]

Adam,

When I say the architecture of the Sebonack clubhouse is Hyper-Protestant I am not referring to anyones belief or not in the Immaculate Conception.  The same can be said when I say that a house, neighborhood or structure looks Jewish, Italian, Greek, African American, Red Neck, Indian, Asian or any other "dangerous" observations.  I would say that modern golf design does dictate a building that reflects the intended culture of the club.  That doesn't have to be a contemporary building as some classic architecture can reflect moods such as somberness, casualness, masculine or feminine tendencies.  Some clubhouses look like you need socks and some don't, some coats and some shorts...It is an interesting and important consideration that is often overlooked by the hip hopping crowd on this site.

You mention cultural influences underlying certain designs.  Could you give some examples of cultural influences in structural design considered by architects such as yourself?

[John Kavanaugh]

John: 

I was perplexed by your view of the Sebonack clubhouse, particularly since it was designed by the same architect as Atlantic's clubhouse -- the late Michael Cunningham, of Hart Howerton.

I wonder if Rabbi Gelman has the same view?  I doubt it.  He gave the invocation at the groundbreaking ... his TV show is syndicated by Mr. Pascucci's TV station on Long Island.

My only comment is about the architecture of the clubhouse, not the practices of the club.  Knowing that the same architect did both clubhouses seems to support my point.  I don't think anyone would have trouble seeing which clubhouse was designed for a Jewish clientele.  Of course, knowing the depth and scope of my ignorance, Pascucci may be Jewish too.  Am I the only person that knows Hyper-Protestant architecture when they see it?

[Tim Taylor]

I love The Bridges' club house. Not every club house needs to be colonial, tudor, cape, or shingle. A friend of mine ripped me once, telling me about the "traditions of the game". Puh-lease. The traditions of the game are out on the course and in how golfers treat one another.

John, I didn't know where you were going with the anti-semitic angle but I intuitively knew what you meant by hyper-protestant.

Tim

[Ian Larson]

not to go off topic but is it the consensus on here that Bayonne is a links wannabe? i know its on garbage and not sand but really but come on its linking the petroleum tanks to the harbor!

[Mike Sweeney]

I am especially interested to hear about how the architecture of the clubhouse might compare (or contrast) with the course architecture of these golf clubs... i.e., does a modern golf course design dictate a contemporary building?

Great to have an architect here.

I have only played The Bridge and that was very early on before the clubhouse. It is an eclectic place in a very cool way, as Bob Rubin left traces of the old Bridgehampton raceway around the property. Then he built the clubhouse (I believe he went back to school and got a degree but he was not the architect) clearly trying to be the anti-tradition type of club. I am told that the course has evolved, but originally it was more parkland/Pine Valley with great views of Peconic Bay. The club has been enormously successful financially, especially in comparison to some others.

My view of Sebonnack, which I have not played but have seen from National and being on the property years before it was a golf course, is that it is the Modern Shinnecock. It may take 25 years of maturity for the snobs here at GCA to embrace it as "in the same league" with its neighbors, but it seems to have that potential along with Friars Head.

I don't know the Jersey courses, but they obviously took different paths and their clubhouses seem to reflect those different paths.

John K,

I really don't think people here think about this stuff nearly as much as you think. Today all the kids are out of school, not just the Jewish kids. So in New York, I think you can make the argument that we are all a little Jewish and after being here close to twenty years I honestly don't know what that means. It is just part of the fabric of life. My wife is half Jewish and I would probably say she is less Jewish than me.  My older son is now in Bar Mitvah season and the architecture of the venues has or will range from Chelsea Piers a sports facilty to the Modern Museum of Science to a Castle in Westchester. I see no pattern of similarity at all.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

I had no idea today was a holiday.   Mazel Tov.  Here in the Midwest we get next Monday off when we all get to be a bit Italian.  Are these High Holidays about over because somebody needs to get back to work and pull Wall Street up by her boot straps.  I think tomorrow will be a better day.

[Mike Sweeney]

I think tomorrow will be a better day.

I doubt people will be long over the holiday, so tomorrow could be another repeat. Hopefully a better week next week.

Need any caddies at Victoria?

[Adam Jeselnick]

Wow, there is a lot to chew on here.  I need to be better prepared with my rebuttals, obviously...

You mention cultural influences underlying certain designs.  Could you give some examples of cultural influences in structural design considered by architects such as yourself?

John K.,

For me, it is critical to understand not only the cultural influences, but also the history of the place, climate, and the geographical context of the site.  Several examples come to mind:  in the US, many of the tribal communities-turned-golf course developers have made their cultural history visible in the clubhouse structure or interior design and detailing.  A tropical island setting almost demands a building that is open-air, to take advantage of the trade winds. 

It is equally fascinating to me how different cultures have re-appropriated a particular design style or clubhouse "type" to call to mind another time and place.  I think this is a valid criticism for course architecture as well, when "links"-style courses are proposed and/or built in the desert, for instance.

I'll try to post a few pictures to illustrate my point.  You might never guess where the first clubhouse pictured is located (or the last, for that matter)

[John Kavanaugh]

Adam,

The first looks Japanese while the last has been discussed on this site before.  Great post, thanks.

[Adam Jeselnick]

John,
Segovia Golf Club in Japan is correct.  Golf course was designed by Desmond Muirhead, clubhouse architect not known...
AJ

[Patrick_Mucci]

John: 

I was perplexed by your view of the Sebonack clubhouse, particularly since it was designed by the same architect as Atlantic's clubhouse -- the late Michael Cunningham, of Hart Howerton.

I wonder if Rabbi Gelman has the same view?  I doubt it.  He gave the invocation at the groundbreaking ... his TV show is syndicated by Mr. Pascucci's TV station on Long Island.

My only comment is about the architecture of the clubhouse, not the practices of the club. 

Knowing that the same architect did both clubhouses seems to support my point. 


No, it contradicts your point

I don't think anyone would have trouble seeing which clubhouse was designed for a Jewish clientele. 


More wildly absurd statements.

Have you ever seen the front of Atlantic's clubhouse ?
It looks like a typical "Hampton" estate home, you know, the one's that you claim the Wasps have lived in for a century.

You should also know that the same look is evidenced in the clubhouses at Metedeconk and Tuxedo, also by the same architect.

I don't think anyone has been dumb enough to assert that Tuxedo, Metedeconk, Sebonack and Atlantic cater to the same clientele.

How would you define the "clientele" at Friar's Head ?

Of course, knowing the depth and scope of my ignorance,


One could prudently conclude that your "ignorance" knows no bounds

Pascucci may be Jewish too. 

Am I the only person that knows Hyper-Protestant architecture when they see it?


YES

[Kalen Braley]

Anything short of this and its anti-semitic.  For your viewing pleasure, all clubhouses in the extended New York area should be immediately retrofitted and remodeled to look just like this.....the oldest Jewish synagogue in Europe.

Buld this or Barney will be blushing...

[Mike Mosely]

That round one is the Knoll Club, isn't it?

Is the first one some trump thing?

What is that HUGE rolling one?