I can't figure it out. Can you ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Looking at the old aerials of Pine Valley, Nassau, Shinnecock, NGLA and Hollywood, one is taken by the extensive bunkering.

In the case of Hollywood, it's truely stunning, almost wall to wall bunkering.

Here's what I don't understand.

These courses were built decades before the advent of the sand wedge.

Hence, they must have been far more penal at inception than they were post 1933/4.

With all the advances in I&B why haven't courses with extensive bunkering, as cited above, been built ?

Why is the trend away from that style when the golfer and his equipment have improved ?

[Richard Hetzel]

Patrick,

Most likely said courses don't "really" want to maintain the bunkers properly. I bet, that the bunkers on the older courses were not kept well and that was acceptable at the time.

In the present, I think that most people believe that bunkers should be "perfect" all the time forgetting they are being penalized and not rewarded!

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Those courses had all that bunkering because

1)  They were built on SAND, and
2)  They had minimal irrigation.

Hence a lot of open sand, styled as bunkers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

The bunkers at PV and I suspect the other clubs weren't maintained the way you context bunker maintainance today.

They were mostly left to the elements, much as Pine Valley is today.

Tom Doak,

Irrigation would seem to be the likely culprit.

IF, due to financial constraints, irrigation is drastically cut back, do you see a revitalization of these bunkers ?

[Craig Sweet]

"IF, due to financial constraints, irrigation is drastically cut back, do you see a revitalization of these bunkers ?"

I see the death of golf....

[Patrick_Mucci]

The game is too unique to die.

It may shrink, but, it will be back.

There's NOTHING like golf.

It's a game for the ages.

[Jim Nugent]

I think Pat is right.  Golf did not die during the Great Depression.  Though that event may have greatly changed golf course architecture.  One of my speculations is that the Depression led to/helped cause the dark ages of GCA.     

[Craig Sweet]

I think cutting irrigation will lead to brown, and brown will lead to fewer golfers, and for many courses that are already financially stressed, that will spell their demise.....

[Craig Sweet]

Maintenance will probably be one of the first areas considered for cut backs during difficult times.... developers are not going to spend money on constructing huge bunkering if they know the money will not be there to maintain them..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Craig Sweet,

I think that's a good thing.

I've always believed that you shouldn't design and build that which is difficult and expensive to maintain.

Going "brownish/yellowish/greenish" will make the game more enjoyable to MORE golfers.

The problem I see is the conflict between what is televised on the PGA Tour and the conditions at local clubs.

If PGA Tour courses were "brownish/yellowish/greenish" those conditions would be accepted sooner at local clubs.

[Dean Stokes]

Craig Sweet,

I think that's a good thing.

I've always believed that you shouldn't design and build that which is difficult and expensive to maintain.

Going "brownish/yellowish/greenish" will make the game more enjoyable to MORE golfers.

The problem I see is the conflict between what is televised on the PGA Tour and the conditions at local clubs.

If PGA Tour courses were "brownish/yellowish/greenish" those conditions would be accepted sooner at local clubs.

Ditto. I just returned from a trip where the courses were hard, fast and greenybrown.

Please, more supers "turn the water off".

[Jeff_Brauer]

In the November GD article discussed on another thread, Brian Silva pleads to just reduce watering to "adequate" water.  That would be enough, and quietly, many supers are doing just that for a variety of reasons.

[Mike McGuire]

The main form of the game in 1933 was match play. Players were not concerned with what they shot. More bunkers meant more interest and a better test.

Todays player is so worried about his 18 hole score he does not want a lot of bunkers in his way.

[Mike Hendren]

What Mike McGuire said.  It's not about the evolution of architecture as it is about the evolution of the game in America.

Bogey

[PCCraig]

I don't think people learn the game and continue to play the game because the grass is green. You could say that deep down people play because of the uniqueness of individual courses, the social aspect, and to improve.

I hardly doubt that if rakes were removed from all the bunkers in the world tomorrow and the supers stopped watering people would stop playing golf. I think golfers would just learn how to adapt.

[Rob Rigg]

Most of the county courses I have played in Ireland are only green due to mother nature. In the summer they get pretty brown but no one complains because that is how they have been playing for decades.

Many American golfers need to be re-educated on what reasonable expectations are in terms of course maintenance.

At the same time, the courses I have played in Europe do not have $25k+++ initiation fees or monthly dues of $400+. Most people play crap golf so the course aesthetics are what they want or need to show off to their friends.

Maybe the economic downturn, combined with environmental realities regarding water use, will be beneficial for golf in America in the long run?

[Craig Sweet]

Though I agree with those who prefer brown/yellow/fast and firm...every survey of the golfing public that I have seen claims golfers put "course condition" above all considerations...and we all know that MOST golfer equate green with good condition and yellowish/brown with bad condition.

So Pat, like I said....if the irrigation is turned off, so will be the golfer, and no amount of bunkering, etc. will matter....so I do not see large bunkered areas ever replacing irrigation.

[Garland Bayley]

Craig,

If you were to visit all the Montana small town courses, would you find them overwatered, underwatered, of very underwatered? If you found ones that were underwatered or very underwatered, how would the per capita play be on those courses vs. the courses in Missoula?

If the water were turned off at Missoula CC, and at the local muni that you used to work at. Which would lose more players?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Craig,

That's because they've been indoctrinated to lush green conditions by watching TV for decades.

If they didn't watch golf on TV, they'd never come to expect wall to wall emerald green grass AND fast greens.

We didn't arrive where we are today overnight.

I remember when fairways went tan/brown in the summer.
Yet, golf remained a great game for those who played it.

Reversing the trend isn't going to happen overnight.

The greatest asset to reversing the trend is the financial stress that clubs are and will continue to experience.

Reducing the amount of water applied should change the tint of green from lush to light.  Once you hit light green, can "brownish/yellowish/greenish" be far behind.

Jeff Brauer & all Superintendents.

In transitioning from today's high water volumes to lower to low water volumes, what's the reasonable time frame to wean the course off of the high demand ?   One year ?  Two years ?   Three years ?

[Matt_Cohn]

I think cutting irrigation will lead to brown, and brown will lead to fewer golfers, and for many courses that are already financially stressed, that will spell their demise.....

Or maybe this will lead to reduced through reduced maintenance, water, fertilizer, pesticide, mowing, etc. costs and will actually be kind of a good thing? Is that possible?

Is it a safe assumption that if you water less and accept brown, you save money on those other things too?

[Craig Sweet]

Garland....I think the conditions you would find at most Montana courses reflect the size of the maintenance budget....just as it does anywhere....and you would find a "you get what you pay for" attitude from the golfers....

In Missoula, I can guarantee you we would lose more golfers at the Country Club if conditions were yellowish/brown....but we would lose the super first....the current super is doing a pretty good job of drying the course out while maintaining "green".....this involves a lot of hand watering and careful use of the irrigation....and money of course.   

[Steve Lang]

Here's what I don't understand.

These courses were built decades before the advent of the sand wedge.

Hence, they must have been far more penal at inception than they were post 1933/4.

With all the advances in I&B why haven't courses with extensive bunkering, as cited above, been built ?

Why is the trend away from that style when the golfer and his equipment have improved ?

• .. SO what.  Didn't folks simply lay open their clubs to add angle & bounce.. i learned how to do that with my first #3-5-7-9 set of irons when I was 9-10, not needing/buying a pitching or sand wedge for over 10 years when I was in college, playing more competitively!
• .. Yes they are grand examples, but in the end, that sand base got ground up and placed there by the glaciers.. haven't similar raw courses been built following similar geology and opportunity?  Just in different locales like the N. Carolina Sand Hills or in Nebraska?

 

[Greg Chambers]

In transitioning from today's high water volumes to lower to low water volumes, what's the reasonable time frame to wean the course off of the high demand ?   One year ?  Two years ?   Three years ?
 
 
 
We did it in one season.  We kept the course extremely dry all spring, mostly brown in color, and very firm, very fast.  Then we had some rainy days at the end of June and the course turned green.  After that, we never applied any more water than we were before, and yet the course held it's greenish brown tint all season.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland....I think the conditions you would find at most Montana courses reflect the size of the maintenance budget....just as it does anywhere....and you would find a "you get what you pay for" attitude from the golfers....

In Missoula, I can guarantee you we would lose more golfers at the Country Club if conditions were yellowish/brown....but we would lose the super first....the current super is doing a pretty good job of drying the course out while maintaining "green".....this involves a lot of hand watering and careful use of the irrigation....and money of course.   

Would it be possible that there are more get what you pay for golfers at the low end then the high end? Would it be possible that the underwatered courses charged less and had a higher percapita play?

In Missoula, if the reduction in water cost went directly into reduction in green fees and membership costs, would the muni end up gaining customers over the well watered muni with higher green fees? How would the CC do?

As Pat indicated above, it is a great game, and I don't think we know what would happen if watering was drastically cut. I hope my questions indicate that you may be leaning the wrong way. After all, you are the one that complained about the reduction in skiing due to the propensity of ski areas to upgrade and increase costs and fees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here's what I don't understand.

These courses were built decades before the advent of the sand wedge.

Hence, they must have been far more penal at inception than they were post 1933/4.

With all the advances in I&B why haven't courses with extensive bunkering, as cited above, been built ?

Why is the trend away from that style when the golfer and his equipment have improved ?

• .. SO what. 

Didn't folks simply lay open their clubs to add angle & bounce..

No, they didn't.
Only the better player knew the techniques for getting out of bunkers and deep rough close to the green, and, as good as they were, it was the advent of the sand wedge that made those shots infinitely easier.

Then, when the Lob wedge came along, it got even easier.

i learned how to do that with my first #3-5-7-9 set of irons when I was 9-10, not needing/buying a pitching or sand wedge for over 10 years when I was in college, playing more competitively!

You get your pitching wedge and I'll get my lob wedge and we'll have a contest to see who can get out of bunkers and deep rough near the green the best.

• .. Yes they are grand examples, but in the end, that sand base got ground up and placed there by the glaciers.. haven't similar raw courses been built following similar geology and opportunity? 

Just in different locales like the N. Carolina Sand Hills or in Nebraska?


Nebraska has two or three courses of note with sandy soil.
SH, DR & WH, not exactly an overwhelming number.

There's a limited number in the sand hills of NC.

And, even at both general locations, you don't see those expansive sand wastes