[John Kavanaugh]

Is the above a true statement or should courses be allowed to develop and change with nature?  I would prefer a course like Sand Hills to change from season to season according to natures whims, while some prefer a course to be as it was the day of opening.  Which do you like and why?

[Mike_Cirba]

*

[John Kavanaugh]

Cirba,

Do not attempt to be me, like me or understand me, just enjoy me as long as you have me.  It is my gift to you.  This is a great thread, let's enjoy it, participate in it and learn from it.  That is why we come here, isn't it?

[Mike_Cirba]

*

[Mike McGuire]

Is the attempt to make courses play the same every day unnatural?

Should a course be asked to play like a pool table or be allowed to fluctuate between wet and dry - slow and fast etc...

[John Kavanaugh]

Then simply tell me, which is more interesting over ones lifetime, short in the realm of eternity, a course like St. Andrews which is somewhat stagnant against nature, or Oakmont which has changed from season to season transformations until recently raped of its changes in favor a somewhat falsely unnatural stagnation.  I personally prefer seasonal transformation to generational.  Really, if it doesn't change in the lifetime of the living does it change at all?

[Eric Smith]

I remember when the Cupp course opened I thought the geometric shapes used in the design were far too extreme.  

But then it grew on me after a few years and maintenance practices massaged it a little.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is the attempt to make courses play the same every day unnatural?

Should a course be asked to play like a pool table or be allowed to fluctuate between wet and dry - slow and fast etc...

Mike,

I want change because I neither wish the things I love to outgrow me or them.  Elasticity is essential to the fruit of life or dentures would be the choice of the elderly.  Ask any toothless mentor and they will advise to pull only as a last resort.

[Mike McGuire]

I too embrace change and variety. Which is why I enjoy living in a place with four distinct seasons.

The course should play- and change - with the weather.

[TEPaul]

"Is the above a true statement or should courses be allowed to develop and change with nature?"


I believe a question like that can only be answered in the context of individual circumstances. I think most of us realize the forces and whims of Nature do not exactly contemplate or conform to some of the exigencies of the game of golf.

Bill Coore told me years ago what precisely to do with Sand Hills in this way was still an open question and one that simply had to be watched. One example was if the whims and forces of Nature were unchecked or unrepaired a green like #17 might have a ton of sand where the green was at the end of a winter.

[Rich Goodale]

John

You are wrong about the courses at St. Andrews (and most other UK courses).  They change dramatically over time, through the seasons and even from day to day.  And, as a bonus, you can play them 365 days a year (and even nearly 24/7 at the height of summer).

Rich

[John Kavanaugh]

TE,

As I wish it would.  The sands of Nebraska should be allowed to change as the leaves of Illinois, but if only for the unrelentless unpatience of the modern golfer.  Sand Hills should open every fifth year so we can see the sands of time in motion rather than some unnatural stagnation of nature.

[John Kavanaugh]

John

You are wrong about the courses at St. Andrews (and most other UK courses).  They change dramatically over time, through the seasons and even from day to day.  And, as a bonus, you can play them 365 days a year (and even nearly 24/7 at the height of summer).

Rich

I don't see how sod walled bunkers and modified burns change year to year.  How has St. Andrews changed since the day of Doug Sander hitting it weak right, on a putt no less.

[TEPaul]

"Sand Hills should open every fifth year so we can see the sands of time in motion rather than some unnatural stagnation of nature."


Brilliant idea!

Since Sand Hills very well may be the most naturally malleable golf course on earth, perhaps you should begin by proposing that all golf course maintenance in America should just completely STOP and just let nature do it! 

If you want to see the sands of time in constant motion unfettered by man or unnatural stagnation take a plane to Jacksonville and I will show you a stretch of about three miles on either side of the old AIA above the Jacksonville Naval Base. Bring your clubs and we can play in it if you don't mind playing it a continuous sand dune before the US Park Rangers throw us off!
 
 
 

[John Kavanaugh]

Would St. Andrews and Carnoustie be vastly different/better/worse if the burns were left as natural streams/ditches/barrancas? 

[Rich Goodale]

John

You are wrong about the courses at St. Andrews (and most other UK courses).  They change dramatically over time, through the seasons and even from day to day.  And, as a bonus, you can play them 365 days a year (and even nearly 24/7 at the height of summer).

Rich

I don't see how sod walled bunkers and modified burns change year to year.  How has St. Andrews changed since the day of Doug Sander hitting it weak right, on a putt no less.

Pajo

Linksland is protean, and any attempts to try to change it permanently are doomed to failure.  The revetting of bunkers and tidying up of burns is just cosmetic surgery, and happens as regularly as it does to Cher or Regis Philbin.  No golf course is Dorian Gray, but then again, neither was Dorian Gray........

Pajo

[Tom_Doak]

John:

Golf courses would be more interesting to SOME people if they were allowed to change with nature, but they would be less interesting to others.

The burn at St. Andrews is a great example.  Were it allowed to move, it might come into play differently on the tee shot twenty years hence ... or it might cut into the green and force that to be moved.  So, if you believe that playing the second shot just over the burn is an interesting feature of the course, you'd better be prepared to roll with the punches (or in this case the tides) and move the green, which isn't always the "less costly" approach.

However, the biggest fallacy of the past ten years is the idea among green committees and younger superintendents that the everyday maintenance of a golf course should be written in stone and that conditions should not vary with the seasons and the weather.  That's a ridiculous standard, and courses that attempt it will pay the price for their hubris sooner or later ... in fact many do today, they just sell it as a construction/greens renovation program when in fact it's been caused by overstressing the greens.

[Sean_A]

JakaB

Some sort of minimal shape for a course has to be in place or it wouldn't make much sense to have a maintenance crew.  What would they be maintaining? 

While I agree that stack sod pot bunkers are a rather crude solution for erosion, I don't know of a better way to keep sand off greens and fairways - which is part of the goal with building those things.  Maintenance is expensive, but sometimes it is cheaper than the alternative unless of course you don't mind relaying new greens every year. 

I agree totally with Tom & Mike.  In the short term, weather has to dictate course standards - its far too expensive to fight it and even if folks are willing to throw money away, it is arguable that an inferior product is the end result.

Ciao

[Ted Kramer]

One of my favorite things about playing golf all year round at Lido on Long Island was watching the seasons and course change throughout the year. Being outside for hours at a time 12 months a year is something that is missing from many people's lives who live in the north east.

The chance to relish a day of 29*f with a 2 club wind as a "perfect day for golf" in January is something that all golfers in the north east should experience. . .  Just like they should experience the crisp cool fall, early spring, and all of the seasons. 4 seasons is a gift here in the north east, it seems a shame that more people, especially golfers, don't make it a point to enjoy/experience all 4.

We played for months into frozen fairways and greens - you want to talk about fast and firm . . . match play out there on the coldest, windiest, most brutal days was some of the most memorable golf I've ever played. I loved every round!!!

-Ted

[Ted Kramer]

One of my favorite things about playing golf all year round at Lido on Long Island was watching the seasons and course change throughout the year. Being outside for hours at a time 12 months a year is something that is missing from many people's lives who live in the north east.

The chance to relish a day of 29*f with a 2 club wind as a "perfect day for golf" in January is something that all golfers in the north east should experience. . .  Just like they should experience the crisp cool fall, early spring, and all of the seasons. 4 seasons is a gift here in the north east, it seems a shame that more people, especially golfers, don't make it a point to enjoy/experience all 4.

We played for months into frozen fairways and greens - you want to talk about fast and firm . . . match play out there on the coldest, windiest, most brutal days was some of the most memorable golf I've ever played. I loved every round!!!

-Ted

The wooden fences that were put up around the bunkers to keep the sand in them during the windy winters were just part of the course during those times. No drops, no relief, play it as it lies . . . if you don't like it up against the fence, don't hit it there next time. And you learned pretty quickly to shut up, deal with the bounces, and golf your ball.

-Ted

[Jeff_Brauer]

JK,

Of course it is.  But as Sean says, golf courses, and most landscapes modified for human use obviously need to retain some of their orginal form to retain some of their original function.  Some human modifications - like piping streams and turning them into sewers, as has been done in big cities forever, can remain quite permanent. 

I guess changing the drain patterns on a golf course could be construed as changing nature too much - indeed some environmentalists have made that charge to stop the golf courses from being built.  It dawns on me that environmentalists are so impatient......all the money they spend trying to stop construction of new golf cousres, and all they had to do was wait until the great financial meltdown of 2008 to do it for them!

The things you are talking about, like bunker edges, are actually quite small incremental changes in the big scheme of things, even talking about golf courses themselves.

[Peter Pallotta]

In an essay about playwriting, Tennessee Williams explored the difference between real life and the life of the stage - the main difference being Time. On the stage, a two hour play can span two hours, or it can span a week or a year or ten thousand years. The good playwright can freeze Time so that the message of the moment rings loud and clear while still seeming true to life and believable. [In real life, the moment often passes too quickly for us to see it and feel it fully, e.g. rushing off to work, we get a call that an acquaintance has passed away unexpectedly, and we have just enough time to tsk tsk and to scribble something about sending flowers to his wife; but later that night, after the kids are off to bed and we pour ourselves a drink, we may find our hand shaking a little and a sadness coming on, the reflections of a deeper feeling of the loss than Time will usually allow us.]  "Snatching the eternal from the ever-fleeting is the great magic trick of human kind," says Williams.  I think the same could be said of the fine architects and superintendants who work their craft with care, i.e. they are able to freeze Time so that the moment and the experience (the golf shot at hand, and the field of play) can be fully appreciated and yet still seem true to life and believable.  Their great magic trick is creating an aura of enduring nature and eternal challenges in a context and environment that is neither enduring nor eternal.  When I first learned how much work was required to keep natural looking bunkers looking natural, I was a bit saddened -- my naive little world-view shattered. Later, I came to accept the reality; and now, later still, I've come to appreciate and value it.  On a golf course and for the sake of a game of golf and the experience of it, human intervention doesn't diminish that experience, it enhances it -- at least potentially, in the presence of talent and a commitment to that ideal.  

Peter  

[Ted Kramer]

In an essay about playwriting, Tennessee Williams explored the difference between real life and the life of the stage - the main difference being Time. On the stage, a two hour play can span two hours, or it can span a week or a year or ten thousand years. The good playwright can freeze Time so that the message of the moment rings loud and clear while still seeming true to life and believable. [In real life, the moment often passes too quickly for us to see it and feel it fully, e.g. rushing off to work, we get a call that an acquaintance has passed away unexpectedly, and we have just enough time to tsk tsk and to scribble something about sending flowers to his wife; but later that night, after the kids are off to bed and we pour ourselves a drink, we may find our hand shaking a little and a sadness coming on, the reflections of a deeper feeling of the loss than Time will usually allow us.]  "Snatching the eternal from the ever-fleeting is the great magic trick of human kind," says Williams.  I think the same could be said of the fine architects and superintendants who work their craft with care, i.e. they are able to freeze Time so that the moment and the experience (the golf shot at hand, and the field of play) can be fully appreciated and yet still seem true to life and believable.  Their great magic trick is creating an aura of enduring nature and eternal challenges in a context and environment that is neither enduring nor eternal.  When I first learned how much work was required to keep natural looking bunkers looking natural, I was a bit saddened -- my naive little world-view shattered. Later, I came to accept the reality; and now, later still, I've come to appreciate and value it.  On a golf course and for the sake of a game of golf and the experience of it, human intervention doesn't diminish that experience, it enhances it -- at least potentially, in the presence of talent and a commitment to that ideal.  

Peter  

Very well said.
Thank you!

-Ted

[Adam Clayman]

I'm of the opinion that a day on day off watering and mowing scheme enhances the need to be aware and adapt. As for SH's I highly doubt DY would spend 60 days on a machine repairing winters damage if he felt the way JK espouses.

[TEPaul]

Ted Kramer:

Nice post that reply #18. That could be one of the primary differences between golf in this country and the way golf is played or was played abroad in the linksland. Did you know that way back golf was essentially a winter game in Scotland simply because the grass did not grow and playing was more manageable for that reason! 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()