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Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2008, 04:19:35 PM »
Tom Doak's description of Shinnecock in the Confidential Guide is dead on.  Playable for the member, but capable of hosting majors, that's all you can ask.  Frankly, it's the genius of Pinehurst 2, but that's another thread. 

My feeling is that with the exception of a couple of spots, 11 most notably, it's not THAT difficult to make a bogey when missing a green.  The issue comes when the player starts playing the hero shots and watches the ball roll back to their feet several times.  The fescue is also an issue, but most of the times I've been in it, the lies aren't ridiculous and you can get it out.  The hardest I've seen the stuff was in the Fall of 2003 when they were getting ready for the U.S. Open.  I was told it was more difficult that fall than it was during the Open . 


Tom Huckaby

Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2008, 04:22:37 PM »
Adam:  in the end I'd concur with all of that. 

So it just comes down to what turns one on.  You said it aptly: 

My feeling is that with the exception of a couple of spots, 11 most notably, it's not THAT difficult to make a bogey when missing a green.

I kinda prefer courses where I'm not playing for bogey every time I miss a green.

But more importantly I find it more fun to have a chance to hit some greens.

TH

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2008, 04:24:39 PM »
Its ok Huck . . .
just say you like your golf easy.
 ;) ;D

-Ted

Tom Huckaby

Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2008, 04:27:05 PM »
Its ok Huck . . .
just say you like your golf easy.
 ;) ;D

-Ted

Ted:  I'd say that if it were true.  My favorite golf on this planet occurs at Sand Hills, and there's no way that's an easy course.

My favorite courses require thought and execution, with a balance devoted to each; but also with a fighting chance for success.

To me Shinnecock succeeds in spades for the first part - hell I said it's in my personal top 10.

It just fails just enough in the second part such that it falls in the latter 5 and not way up at the top as others have it.

TH

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2008, 04:30:03 PM »
;) ;) ;)


Perhaps the best thing about a great golf course like Shinnecock is that it appears fairly benign to most of us , yet like an old time Long Island troubadour immortalized ,

 "she's so good with the stiletto , you don't even see the blade "

that's Shinnecock ,  and except when the rough is grown for tournament conditions ...and the greens are really fast and firm....and the wind is blowing  it appears eminently playable ......butttttttttttt

try to shoot areally low score...see if you get it up and down when you short side one.....how about going 18 without a three putt ....hello Noonan !

I think TEP was going there, but he didn't elaborate  !

I'm saving this post for later use - much brilliance lies within.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2008, 04:51:34 PM »
Its ok Huck . . .
just say you like your golf easy.
 ;) ;D

-Ted

Ted:  I'd say that if it were true.  My favorite golf on this planet occurs at Sand Hills, and there's no way that's an easy course.

My favorite courses require thought and execution, with a balance devoted to each; but also with a fighting chance for success.

To me Shinnecock succeeds in spades for the first part - hell I said it's in my personal top 10.

It just fails just enough in the second part such that it falls in the latter 5 and not way up at the top as others have it.

TH

Fair enough ....

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2008, 04:56:11 PM »
Huck,

The only thing I can say about your views of Shinnecock being overly penal is that you need to see it a few more times to see the light...so you've got that going for you...

Tom Huckaby

Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2008, 05:04:22 PM »
Huck,

The only thing I can say about your views of Shinnecock being overly penal is that you need to see it a few more times to see the light...so you've got that going for you...

Just remember it's overly penal such that it doesn't reach the absolute top.... that's far different from overly penal in general.

But yeah, I think I need to play it at least 20 more times to find out for sure.

 ;D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2008, 05:24:52 PM »
20 oughta do it...



Truly, I would be curious to see just where you ended up to have left with this feeling of punity from the course...I may have rose colored glasses, seeing as it is an east coast course and all...because there really are not that many places you could get to with reasonably decent shots that leave you no chance for a par and slim chances for a bogey...sure, a ball can plug under a lip and random other things like that, but those are the ones that even out in the end. No water to speak of...virtually no long grass near the greens...

Tom Huckaby

Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2008, 05:32:41 PM »
Sully:

I guess it might come down to this:  we played the tippy-tip tees.  That was a lot of golf course for me as I don't hit the ball all that far and on top of that, my driver was broken (had a rattle in it).

SO.. my impression is quite likely skewed.

But I do recall just a lot of long shots to very difficult targets.   And then the punity of the targets being most felt at holes like 10, 11, 17... that's just what I remember.

TH

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2008, 05:41:23 PM »
It is, no doubt, a difficult golf course...with the size of the greens being its ultimate defense to slightly "OFF" shots...which gets exagerrated if you were not driving it with all your GUSTO. You are then left with longer than normal approaches to these small greens...and I can certainly see getting into positions on those three holes that seem impossibly dificult to recover from, but even those holes offer a quadrant to miss that affords a doable up and down and a worst case of bogey...sans a total flubbed chip.

I think after your 21st round there you will have Shinnecock right on the same mantle as Sand Hills...just make sure to call me if I am right.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2008, 05:45:26 PM »
Sully, I will make sure and get back to you... via hologram in 2055, when it's most likely I get my 20th round at Shinnecock.

 ;D

I get what you are saying in any case.  It is a great golf course.  I just also played it the same day, under the same conditions, as the course across the street.  And there, well... the same guy hit the ball the same way and had a decent chance at success.   The contrast was just SO stark...  I got so royally brutalized at Shinnecock, it's just very tough for me to imagine it ever being really my cup of tea.  BUT, all things are possible.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2008, 09:56:54 PM »
Ted,

What tees did you play ?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2008, 10:04:20 PM »
Don't listen to Huckaby...he was worn out from playing waaaaayyyyy tooooo many great courses (in the words of Matt Ward) on a short trip to the east coast jam-packed with wonderful golf.

By the time he hit Shinny, even that consistently repeatable Bob Murphyish swing of his began to grind down.  ;)  ;D

As Archie alluded to, Shinnecock is hardly a bear and is very playable and even benign and forgiving if one plays conservatively.   However, if one should start to play a bit more aggressively, it soon becomes a death of one thousand paper cuts.

This might also be the only discussion group in the world where Billy Joel's 1978 song "Stilleto" gets quoted.   Good one, Arch..  ;D

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2008, 05:19:29 AM »
Ted,

What tees did you play ?

We played the back tees.
There were unused tee boxes behind us on some holes, but I think those are the US Open tees.

-Ted

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2008, 05:25:36 PM »
At Shinney, a shot missed is a shot lost. Try and get it back and you'll lose another. That's what I've learned over the years.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2008, 05:43:29 PM »
JKinney,

I beg to differ when a good player (Tom Huckaby) only slightly misses an approach...as has been the conversation on this thread...

Please name just a couple of places a ball is likely to end up on a mild mis-hit approach that results in an impossible up and down...#10 and #11 notwithstanding...I truly cannot think of one although I'm sure they are there...

Michael Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2008, 05:56:40 PM »
I agree with JES, on my one and only trip around Shinnecock, I was surprised to miss two greens in particular and find that it was possible to get up and down.  Long left on #8 and long on #15 left me with manageable pitches.  Of course I also missed it long and left on #11 and was faced with the scariest shot around the greens I have ever seen...

I think it's genius is that it presents so many options and possibilities.  My host talked about 15 and 20 handicaps getting it around "under their handicaps" and very accomplished players not being able to play to theirs, and both groups walking away impressed with each aspect.

Mike

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2008, 07:39:02 PM »

JKinney,

I beg to differ when a good player (Tom Huckaby) only slightly misses an approach...as has been the conversation on this thread...

Please name just a couple of places a ball is likely to end up on a mild mis-hit approach that results in an impossible up and down...#10 and #11 notwithstanding...I truly cannot think of one although I'm sure they are there...

There are a number of holes where misses result in a lost stroke or two.

Being long on a number of holes can be disastrous.
# 5 comes quickly to mind, but, many others also punish long shots.

# 7, 9, 10 and 11 punish short shots.


Ted Kramer,

Thanks.

The course is infinitely more difficult from the BACK, back tees, especially when the wind is up.

It's certainly a pleasure to play.

I happen to like the ribbon like fairways where man's hand has been restrained.

Today, fairways like #9 and # 18 would probably be flattened

Matt_Ward

Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2008, 01:08:41 AM »
Just a quick note to Huck and all others who might only have one visit to SH. Conditions make such a major impact when playing this famed Long Island gem.

I rate it as the finest course I haver ever played in the USA and I say that after having played the course roughly 9-10 times. In one particular visit the course played as severe as it did on the day they played the first round at the '86 US Open when Tway led with an even par 70 and Nicklaus lost his first ever ball in a major championship with push fade on the 10th. On that extremely difficult day -- one had to hold on for dear life because when conditions become that difficult just finishing the round is no small feat of accomplishment.

On the other hand -- I've played the course when the wind was more benign and the sun shined so bright as to illuminate all the unique elements that make playing there so grand. Just standing on the high ground by the clubhouse and seeing the grandeur of the holes as they move up and down over the glorious grounds will cause a rush of excitement for any golfer --whether it be first time or something more.

Shinnecock didn't need the USGA to overcook the place in '04 and I can only hope calmer minds will prevail and that the club will once again host our national championship -- frankly I'd like to see the course serve as host every 5-6 years -- it is that good as anyone who has been there can attest. I've been to all of the three modern Opens there and each one was a joy to behold such a grand layout being the great test of golf it most certainly is.

Is Shinnecock hard?

No doubt when conditions can influence the outcome plus the nature of one's game is also a prime consideration. But Shinnecock is never so brutal as to penalize the well thoughtout and well executed shot.

Doak's last words in CG said it best about Shinnecock, "A great course to play every day, as well as a proven championship venue, not many courses can claim both." Amen.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2008, 09:03:35 AM »

JKinney,

I beg to differ when a good player (Tom Huckaby) only slightly misses an approach...as has been the conversation on this thread...

Please name just a couple of places a ball is likely to end up on a mild mis-hit approach that results in an impossible up and down...#10 and #11 notwithstanding...I truly cannot think of one although I'm sure they are there...

There are a number of holes where misses result in a lost stroke or two.

Being long on a number of holes can be disastrous.
# 5 comes quickly to mind, but, many others also punish long shots.

# 7, 9, 10 and 11 punish short shots.


Ted Kramer,

Thanks.

The course is infinitely more difficult from the BACK, back tees, especially when the wind is up.

It's certainly a pleasure to play.

I happen to like the ribbon like fairways where man's hand has been restrained.

Today, fairways like #9 and # 18 would probably be flattened

I would have loved to play/see it from from those "back back" tees . . .
And your point on #9 and #18 fairways is spot on.
The rolling, winding, tumbling nature of the gorund out there is something very special.

-Ted

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2008, 09:29:25 AM »
Pat,

None of your examples eliminate the opportunity to save par. That was the suggestion by Tom Huckaby.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2008, 10:18:24 AM »
I have to agree with JES II here.
Besides the downhill, fried egg lie I had in the bunker on #11, I don't think I was faced with any truly "impossible up and downs".

And for whatever it is worth, I made par from:
Behind the green on #2.
Behind the green on #7.
Short grass area right of the #9 green
Greenside bunker on #16
Back bunker on #17

And I'm certainly not what you'd call a short game wiz . . .

-Ted

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2008, 11:05:05 AM »
Ted,

From the description of your round, it's clear that you don't hit the ball far enough off line nearly often enough to understand just how difficult Shinnecock really is.

In order to understand just how really hard that golf course is, you need to play more like I do.

Which I don't recommend as a regular thing.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Thoughts on Shinnecock
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2008, 11:16:53 AM »
Just a quick note to Huck and all others who might only have one visit to SH. Conditions make such a major impact when playing this famed Long Island gem.

I rate it as the finest course I haver ever played in the USA and I say that after having played the course roughly 9-10 times. In one particular visit the course played as severe as it did on the day they played the first round at the '86 US Open when Tway led with an even par 70 and Nicklaus lost his first ever ball in a major championship with push fade on the 10th. On that extremely difficult day -- one had to hold on for dear life because when conditions become that difficult just finishing the round is no small feat of accomplishment.

On the other hand -- I've played the course when the wind was more benign and the sun shined so bright as to illuminate all the unique elements that make playing there so grand. Just standing on the high ground by the clubhouse and seeing the grandeur of the holes as they move up and down over the glorious grounds will cause a rush of excitement for any golfer --whether it be first time or something more.

Shinnecock didn't need the USGA to overcook the place in '04 and I can only hope calmer minds will prevail and that the club will once again host our national championship -- frankly I'd like to see the course serve as host every 5-6 years -- it is that good as anyone who has been there can attest. I've been to all of the three modern Opens there and each one was a joy to behold such a grand layout being the great test of golf it most certainly is.

Is Shinnecock hard?

No doubt when conditions can influence the outcome plus the nature of one's game is also a prime consideration. But Shinnecock is never so brutal as to penalize the well thoughtout and well executed shot.

Doak's last words in CG said it best about Shinnecock, "A great course to play every day, as well as a proven championship venue, not many courses can claim both." Amen.

Matt - thanks for the "quick note."

One right back at you:  I played it in pretty benign conditions.  The rough was somewhat high, but not brutal.  It was pretty firm and fast, but nothing crazy.  And it remains quite likely the most difficult golf course I have ever played.  "All it takes are perfect shots" was the phrase uttered that day, and I concurred with it.

Oh I'd love to play it every day - hell that would mean I'd be playing golf every day, which would be heaven for me - it's just not my personal cup of tea as it requires so much more game than I have to have a reasonable chance at success - as we've discussed many times, I prefer the course across the street, where I have so much more of a fighting chance.

But again, to each his own.

BTW, you still never did admit you were wrong about the definition of Doak 10s.  But that's OK.  Note that I would call each of NGLA and Shinnecock such.  Just if I had to choose between the two, give me NGLA.

TH