Lansdowne's Renaissance ?

[Carl Nichols]

Matt:
11 is my least favorite par 3 on the course (though it can obviously be extremely demanding from the tips).  Does that make it a horrible hole?  No; I'll stick with fine.  But if I were extolling the virtues of PB Dye, I wouldn't start there.

[Matt_Ward]

Carl:

Help me out -- you trash my assessment of the 11th hole but then don't provide any meat to your opinion beyond the nature of the artificial grass strip that's there. I just think when you stand on that elevated tee you need to propely gauge all the elements -- at nearly 170 yards (tip distance) the hole plays considerably different than middle and front markers. When the pin is flush left -- either fron or back the requirements to get close are most exacting.

How bout flushing out your thoughts just a wee bit more?

I simply started with the 11th as a note when playing the course. Keep in mind Carl my assessment of P.B. Dye came when it first opened a number of years ago. I have no idea how or even why the changes were made and I have asked a few times for anyone who has played the original layout and the current one to provide their thoughts. Maybe you can offer as much.

What I liked about P.B. Dye is that when you stack it against the other CCFAD courses and those that are taxpayer-owned within the broader region I see it certainly being a good bit of fun to play. The greens are well contoured and quite strong in a number of spots -- but that only serves to make one's approach play that much more exacting.

I liked the rolling terrain and the change of pace situations you get when playing there do keep the game / shots interesting. Heaven help me but all of the par-5 holes are in play for two big blows and you don't need to have anything remotely near Jason Zuback length to pull it off.

The only other courses I would recommend to play available to the public that are somewhat nearby would be Beechtree and Bulle Rock.

We do agree about this -- the profusion of courses that were built throughout the Mid-Atlantic in the late-80's and 90's available to the public
were for the most part really dreadful for a whole host of reasons.

AHughes:

Love the wholehearted support -- quote, "God help me, but I am with Matt on this." With partners like that I'll stick with my detractors.

[Matt_Ward]

I mentioned this previously but if the RTJ and Norman courses were merged together I think the net result would make for an even more unique course than the two separate ones in play now.

The RTJ would include the present 10th thru 14th holes -- they would play as the 1st through 5th holes -- then -- you jump to the connection point from where the par-5 3rd at the Norman begins and continue in sequence all the way through the 9th hole. At that point you can easily access the 1st hole and play through the 2nd hole.

The remaining holes would then be back on the RTJ course with the 15th hole and continuing through the 18th hole.

The breakdown of yardage would be as follows ...

RTJ (10th now 1st) = 379 (4)
RTJ (11th now 2nd) = 580 (5)
RTJ (12th now 3rd) = 441 (4)
RTJ (13th now 4th) = 210 (3)
RTJ (14th now 5th) = 418 (4)
GN (3rd now 6th) = 554 (5)
GN (4th now 7th) = 176 (3)
GN (5th now 8th) = 331 (4)
GN (6th now 9th) = 429 (4)

Total Out = 3,518 yds / par- 36

GN (7th now 10th) = 434 (4)
GN (8th now 11th) = 208 (3)
GN (9th now 12th) = 586 (5)
GN (1st now 13th) = 421 (4)
GN (2nd now 14th) = 473 (4)
RTJ (15th now 15th) = 391 (4)
RTJ (16th now 16th) = 533 (5)
RTJ (17th now 17th) = 203 (3)
RTJ (18th now 18th) = 417 (4)

Total In = 3,866 yds / par- 36
                 
GRAND TOTAL =  7,384 yds / par- 72

Candidly, I think the combo is much better than the individual layouts.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - I like you too much to argue with you anymore.  The DC area (I've been here since the early sixties) has mediocre golf courses - all further discussion is just splitting hairs.

The one exciting prospect is Avenel (oops, Potomac).  Although it's private I think this place could be special, at least compared to othe DC area courses.

J

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Fair enough but I think your point on blind shots is a broader one and not just contained to P.B. Dye. We see that design feature far differently.

What would you think of a composite layout at Lansdowne along the lines I outlined?

I agree w you on the overall mediocre nature of golf throughout the DC area.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Composite Landsdowne.... That's a poser.

Given a blank slate I would tear up the entire venue, start from the eleventh tee at RTJ, follow the "new" back nine Jones routing, loop back once below the driving range and finish around the Norman lake at 18.  I would laterally frame the holes in protective and ample bunkering.  I would avoid at all costs the lowland marshy areas.  I would make greens smaller, more elevated and more ungulating since the turf is always soaking wet and approach targets will always be a darts-to-a-board affair - make the player hit pinpoint targets. 

The above is pure armchairing.  Any serious alternate proposal would take more than a quick opinion on gca and need proessional advice.

JC

[Andy Hughes]

AHughes:

Love the wholehearted support -- quote, "God help me, but I am with Matt on this." With partners like that I'll stick with my detractors.

Matt, after your misguided assessments of the courses of my formative years, I think it fairly generous of me to admit you are right in this case 
A hole like #12 is, IMHO, just a better, more interesting hole than anything Whiskey Creek has. Is there any hole at WC that really would make you want to hang around the green after you are done and try different putts and pitches and chips?

[Carl Nichols]

Matt:
Here's why I think #11 is nothing more than "fine"
1.  I find it ugly for four related reasons:  the semi-vertical placement of the wood planks; the sand between the wood planks and water; the stagnant nature of the water; and the artifical turf.
2.  It's too penal:  anything short, left, or long is a guaranteed double, and the bailout right is semi-blocked by trees.  I don't dislike difficult holes -- I've said before that WF West is the course I've played that I would pick if I could only play one course the rest of my life -- but this strikes me as overly penal.
3.  Because of (2), and because it follows a short par 4, it basically guarantees a backup.  I've had several rounds at PB Dye where there were three groups on the hole.
Carl

   

[Matt_Ward]

Carl:

Might it just be that your intimidated by what the hole requires?

My God, the player is generally hitting a very short iron to the hole. How much more room does anyone need? If you need a bailout area -- should they then build a completely larger landing area to the far right of the hole.

Think of what makes the 17th at TPC / Sawgrass such a mind altering experience? You just have to hit a short iron to a certain target - to a precise distance. I call that shot control and having the nerve to pull it off.

Carl, I can appreciate and concur with your sentiments on WF/W but it's a layout that is especially finicky on what type of shots will be rewarded there too. 

Your issue for the 11th at P.B. Dye is a good bit related to the articifial strip of turf and the water quality to the left of the green. That's really being a bit touchy but it's a personal opinion -- so be it for you.

Regarding the nature of slow play -- that's a management issue -- not an architectural issue.

[Carl Nichols]

Matt:

I'm quite certain that my views aren't skewed because I'm somehow intimidated by what the hole requires.  I'm just thinking about how the hole plays for all golfers.  (I also doubt I've ever been intimidated by anything on a golf course -- that's an emotion I reserve for more consequential things.)

In any event, let's agree to disagree -- you like ugly, very penal holes; I prefer the non-ugly, type!

 

[Matt_Ward]

Carl:

Nice try -- but allow me to use the words I prefer when outlining the 11th hole.

You said I "like ugly, very penal holes."

Not quite acurate.

The hole as I see it is no more penal than the 12th at Somerset Hills (also w H20 fronting that green) and that hole clearly isn't penal. I guess you see the 17th at TPC / Sawgrass as being penal too?

I don't see the 11th at P.B.Dye as penal -- it's simply about shot control and nerve. If someone can't hit or come relatively near to that green with a short iron there's a simple remedy --

head to the range and see if the pro is available for lessons. 

Yes, we do agree to disagree on the 11th -- however -- you did mention your fondness for the overall course. I guess we are one for two -- that's a 500 average -- not bad though.

[Carl Nichols]

Matt:
I think we're 17 for 18. 

[Matt_Ward]

Carl:

On the flip side -- did you play P.B. Dye prior to the changes that happened -- and if you did can you outline with any detail what the difference is between then and now?

[Carl Nichols]

Matt:
I played PB Dye several times in its first few years, but for various reasons I haven't been back since.  My understanding is that a firm called McDonald design group -- see http://www.mcdonaldgolfinc.com/design/clients_list.html -- did some work on 2 greens (4 and 7); I haven't seen those changes (and probably any others that might have occurred).  So I think all of my experience is of the original version.