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TEPaul

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2008, 10:01:40 PM »
"The other oddity is the unusual mounding. No other Raynor course has mounding like Westhampton..."


Mr. MacWood:

What mounding are you referring to? What holes are you referring to that has mounding unlike any other Raynor course? Have you ever been to Westhampton? Westhampton only has one template hole? What about its redan, short and biarritz?

Where in the world do you come up with some of the things you say on here? Do you just dream it up and post it to see if noone notices?  ;)

Who in the hell wrote that Golf Magazine article you referred to anyway? He sounds like one really bad reporter.

We should see if George Bahto is aware if Raynor ever actually just constructed a golf course for a designer other than Macdonald.

Lastly, you have proclaimed on this website that Barker was the second best architect in America but yet he left this country in 1914 or 1915 feeling distinctly unrespected!?!

Mr. MacWood, frankly, those two thoughts are even more illogical than you are!

TEPaul

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2008, 10:05:28 PM »
Patrick:

You're confused by some of the things Mr. MacWood says on here?!?!

Join the crowd! ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2008, 10:13:28 PM »
There is a listing of courses designed by Barker on the Raritan Valley Country Club site as follows:

Alabama - Don Hawkins Muni (FKA Roebuck CC) 1914
Georgia - Capital city C (1911) (apparently this course was originally known as Brookhaven, although this isn't mentioned on the Raritan site); Druid Hills CC (1912)
Maryland - Columbia CC (1910)
New Jersey - Arcola CC (1909); Raritan Valley CC (FKA Somerville CC) (1911);Rumson CC (1910)
Ohio - Mayfield CC (1911), with Bert Way
Virginia: CC of Virginia (Westhampton Course 1908)


Although I don't know if Barker had anything to do with Westhampton, and believe a second source (like club records) might be helpful, I would like to correct a few of the dates on the list above.

Columbia and Arcola didn't open until 1911, and I don't know if anyone knows when the course at CC of Virginia opened for certain.   In addition, there was another course on the site of Rumson prior to the current course, and Barker became the pro there in 1911 so it's likely that whatever work he did happened after that time.

I just believe it's very important to establish clear and accurate dates if one is to understand historical timelines.

George_Bahto

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Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2008, 11:19:29 PM »
I have portions of two of their club histories:

From the Westhampton club history

The Club on Potunk Lane

By 1913 pressure had grown for an 18-hole course ...................

The course itself was designed by Seth Raynor and constructed by Charles L. House, Princeton ‘09 and nephew of Lucius H. Beers, including the digging of the drainage canal along the 4th and 10th holes.

........ it goes on to list who the various properties were purchased from........

Seth Raynor’s original map shows a course of 6171 yards whereas today’s course is 6393 .... then goes on to detail the original hole yardages vs the yardages when the history was written.

The Club Hist then compares the differences between the original SR drawing and what actually was built.

I believe the club also still has the original blueprint because I made a tracing off of it quite a while back.


I also have this information:


From Westhampton Club History:

"Seth Raynor, who had been associated with Charles Macdonald, the designer of the National Golf Links course, was commissioned to design the Potunk Lane course (Westhampton).  Charles L. House built the course, and Jimmy Rosser, a graduate of Princeton (1909),  fresh from Scotland, supervised it and stayed on for nearly 40 years more to be its superb greenkeeper."


and .....................
 
     “Raynor's first solo design was to become one of his finest efforts.  With the help of Garden City's professional, H.H. Barker, Westhampton boasts some of the more intricate green complexes Raynor ever built.”



From what I have learned Seth Raynor, pressed by CBM to go out on his own in 1915 during the ongoing landfill operation at the Lido course, designed three course that first year: Westhampton, Greenwich CC and CC of Fairfield.  The latter two course took a long time to build but Westhampton (Beach) went along pretty smooth and was completed quickly.

Gil and I critiqued the course a couple years back and a master plan was submitted.

Many of the inspiration strategies were there, some were lost but in all this is a great example of a Raynor design. One of the holes that was “lost” was the option-fairway hole called Strategy a copy of a hole used on the Lido course. We recommended it be restored as close to original as possible.

This is one of my personal favorites even though it was laid out on a crazy piece of land.


If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2008, 11:22:18 PM »
all i know is that the pictures with Ran's review of the course are very intriguing
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Thomas MacWood

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2008, 11:24:43 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I'm confused.

Are you saying that Barker designed Westhampton in LI ?

As to the templates, there's more than two at Westhampton, LI

Pat
That is what the article said. We can argue if the 11th is a true short hole or if the 17th is a true Biarritz, I don't think one can argue Westhampton is unlike any other Raynor or Macdoanld course. Raynor did build the course and obviously left his mark, but so did Barker. I believe the original 16th at WCC is mirror image of the original 5th at GCGC.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2008, 11:25:18 PM »
By the way under the Raynor concept drawing there is a caption:

"Rough drawing of present course taken from Seth J. Raynor's original map which now hangs in the proshop.


I don't know what year this was "hanging in the proshop"

The drawing shows an intricate set of bunkering.

The configuration of the 3rd hole, with its sunken green, remains a mystery to me - certainly the only one the built/designed. The best description might be it is an Eden hole in a sunken Punchbowl setting.

All you see from the tee is the upper part of the flag.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Thomas MacWood

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2008, 11:29:56 PM »
George
I have that map...I'm not sure where I got it. Have you seen the original map?

What year was the club history published?

Have you found any contemporaneous reports mentioning who designed the course?

TEPaul

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2008, 11:31:16 PM »
“Raynor's first solo design was to become one of his finest efforts.  With the help of Garden City's professional, H.H. Barker, Westhampton boasts some of the more intricate green complexes Raynor ever built.”

George:

What, in your opinion, does that mean---eg "with the help of Garden City's professional. H.H. Barker,...."?

Is there any possible way that you can think of whereby THAT could be construed to mean that H.H. Barker designed Westhampton and Raynor just constructed it to his design?

Do you think it's probable that Raynor may've thought of hiring a guy like Barker into his incipient design company and perhaps that didn't work out for Barker inspiring him to go home to England?

TEPaul

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2008, 11:43:53 PM »
George:

Are you saying you are aware that the club has a drawing of the course essentially done by Raynor before the course was built that is basically the way the course was built?

If so, that doesn't seem to leave much doubt as to who designed the course.

Mr. MacWood:

Actually, Westhampton's biarritz seems to have been quite similar to Mountain Lake's biarritz. Furthermore, to claim that Westhampton is somehow uncharacteristic of Raynor's style just makes no sense at all.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2008, 11:52:03 PM »
Thanks, Mike. I was just poking about and came upon those dates.

One note on the mounding mentioned by Tom above, from Ran's writeup of the course:

"Raynor’s original plan clearly shows mounding strategically placed throughout the course, which is unusual as mounding doesn't play as prominent a role in his subsequent designs. Various architects had built mounds over the years at Westhampton but as Rewinski points out, Raynor's mounds have an unnatural, engineered look (as opposed to Ross's more graceful mounds for instance). Purposefully replicating them without appearing too neat and organized is difficult. Through trail and error, and over a period of years, he and his crew have perfected giving the mounds across the entire course this desired manufactured look."

And as George Bahto says above, Raynor's plan still exists. Interesting, though, about Barker's involvement in at least the green designs. Perhaps the Golf article was correct in the names of the participants, just not about their respective roles?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Thomas MacWood

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2008, 11:53:22 PM »
TE
Did the Mountain Lake Biarritz have a horseshoe shaped bunker?

TEPaul

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2008, 12:12:18 AM »
Mr. MacWood:

I don't know if Mountain Lake's biarritz had a horseshoe bunker. In your opinion, if it did would that alone make it similar to Westhampton's and if it did not would that, in your opinion, make it completely dissimilar?  ;) You're sort of grasping at straws, don't you think----and including with your recent conclusion that H.H. Barker designed Westhampton and Raynor merely constructed it?

This is the problem you will run into when you jump to these kinds of unresearched conclusions over some newspaper article. It seems like you should have at least checked some of these things with George Bahto as this thread seems to be showing unless you now think you know more than he does about Raynor and his courses.

This is what happens with your constant "throw some spagehetti against the wall" research modus operandi on here, Mr. MacWood!  ;)

But it seems you generally figure it's always convenient to just deflect all that with constant trivial questions like horseshoe bunkers on biarritizes rather than facing the essence of the subject here which is whether or not Seth Raynor designed Westhampton's golf course given some of the evidence produced recently on this thread.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 12:21:51 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2008, 06:48:28 AM »
TE
This is an example of what you have brought to this discusion in less the 24 hours:

And if not it seems quite odd that you're so sure of the crediblility of a newspaper article but this certainly isn't the first time you've come to this kind of conclusion about the architect of an important American course via some newspaper article.

Did Barker consider himself to be a disciple of the "National School" of architecture??

I also thought Barker was back in England in 1914 apparently having left this country feeling he wasn't respected.

Who in the hell wrote that Golf Magazine article you referred to anyway? He sounds like one really bad reporter.

Where in the world do you come up with some of the things you say on here? Do you just dream it up and post it to see if noone notices? 

We should see if George Bahto is aware if Raynor ever actually just constructed a golf course for a designer other than Macdonald.

Lastly, you have proclaimed on this website that Barker was the second best architect in America but yet he left this country in 1914 or 1915 feeling distinctly unrespected!?!

Mr. MacWood, frankly, those two thoughts are even more illogical than you are!

Actually, Westhampton's biarritz seems to have been quite similar to Mountain Lake's biarritz.


Not a single thread of factual information, only denunciation for the sake of denunciation and a personal attack upon myself. You have no information. The Biarritz at Westhampton was not like the Biarritz Mountain Lake or any other Biarritz. Beyond the difference in the greens it featured a huge horseshoe bunker that wrapped around the entire front of the green.

You make these pronouncements without having anything to back them up and then you criticize those who bring evidence to the table if it doesn't jive with you very simple understanding: The newspaper article is wrong (actually it was a magazine article)...the reporter was bad...you dream this stuff up...you need to do more research....you're conclusions are irrational....you're grasping at straws....you're throwing speghetti against the wall...I'm certain the club history doesn't mention Barker.

I would hope the next time you attempt to dominate a discusion you bring something of substance with you.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2008, 09:38:57 AM »


Actually, Westhampton's biarritz seems to have been quite similar to Mountain Lake's biarritz.[/i]

Not a single thread of factual information, only denunciation for the sake of denunciation and a personal attack upon myself. You have no information. The Biarritz at Westhampton was not like the Biarritz Mountain Lake or any other Biarritz. Beyond the difference in the greens it featured a huge horseshoe bunker that wrapped around the entire front of the green.



What difference does this make vis-a-vis Barker?  Raynor worked on Piping Rock, which had a similar bunkering scheme on the front of its biarritz. Wouldn't the existence of a Biarritz in the first place seem to tip the scales in favor of Raynor?

On what other courses that Barker laid out/designed/worked on/constructed is a Biarritz featured?

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2008, 09:56:41 AM »
The W-hampton Biarritz was a single green with this sort of inverted horseshoe bunkering around the front - totally different bunkering than any other they built.

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

wsmorrison

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2008, 10:16:33 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I know you saw many Long Island courses in a short period of time.  Did you visit Westhampton?

George,

That example isn't altogether different than the bunkering at the old 6th at Shinnecock Hills.  I believe there are other examples where the bunkering fronted the fairway prior to the Biarritz green.


TEPaul

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2008, 10:50:03 AM »
Mr. MacWood:

Regarding your post #38, I'm glad you posted it because it shows quite clearly the way you go about trying to analyze the architectural history of a course and the way I do and others do who I believe are so much better at historical analysis than you are.

The fact is there is a remarkable similarity in the way you have come at the subject of the architectural history of Merion and Myopia and now Westhampton.

1. You find an old article somewhere and depending on your own interpretation of what it says you automatically make the assumption that it must be right and that all other information, even from a club's own contemporaneous administrative records (I know what Merion's and Myopia's say but not Westhampton's or even if they still have contemporaneous administrative records of the creation of their course), must be wrong. Furthermore, you don't even know what a club has or what their records actually say before you make these pronouncements on here that their histories are wrong, that they glorify their supposed architects, and that you have proven them wrong. I believe anyone can see that is not a very comprehensive way of analyzing something like this.

2. You do all this without even bothering to go to these clubs at all or getting involved with their historical material.

3. When others suggest, as others on this thread have already done, other and more logical ways of analyzing the accuracy or credibility of some old newspaper article (which seems to be all you have when you begin these odd historical campaigns of yours), against other material at a club or whatever, you just tend to automatically dismiss it, ignore it or rationalize it away by claiming the club must be wrong due to some unfactual attempt to glorify their attributed architect, the fact that the history writer (such as Myopia's Edward Weeks) must be wrong, and/or that the club or its historian is trying to hide or distort something. Then it seems if that isn't enough you get into asking endless fairly trivial questions of everyone else.


It seems to me your primary purpose on here is to show yourself to be some kind of expert researcher who is better at historical architectural analysis than anyone else.

As I've said a number of times on here over the years I think you are a good raw researcher but you are truly illogical in your analyses of what research material means when taken together and analyzed in that light. This thread and this subject of Westhampton seems to be another example of that which is remarkable similar in method to what we've gone through with you with the likes of Merion and Myopia.

I think this has been a good thread because others have participated with suggestions of a proper and far more logical way or analyzing this kind of issue and subject. Then people such as George Bahto who arguably knows a lot more about Raynor, his courses and his career, than the rest of us, has weighed in with what he either has or what he may be aware of that will lead to a sensible analysis of who actually designed Westhampton's golf course.

There's no real beneficial purpose to this analysis in blaming me for pointing these things out under the guise that I'm criticizing or insulting you personally. All I've done is question your method of overall analysis of these questions because I believe it is both remarkably incomplete and slipshod. The way you've gone about these subjects (Merion, Myopia, Westhampton) happens to be remarkably similar and it is not being done well at all by you. I think it's about time you begin to listen to the suggestions of others about a better and more accurate way to go about this kind of thing, and stop deflecting those suggestions.

As to the central question----eg who designed Westhamption---we should all reserve that opinion until GeorgeB, the club, and any other available resource weighs in on what they have and what it means. Clearly you are not aware of what any of that might be and yet you conclude with assurance that you know Barker designed Westhampton and Raynor merely constructed it!   ;)

In my opinion, one who could be really helpful in this analysis would be Mike Rewinski, Westhampton's long time super who just may know as much or more than anyone about the architectural details of Westhampton's architecture and architect and its history.

Do you know him? I do. He used to be on this site some years ago and I was able to spend a couple of days there with him on that course some years ago.

My suggestion with Westhampton's architectural history and its architect, is that we allow it to go through this entire comparative information analysis rather than just taking the word of someone like you who is attempting to promote the story of this history off some magazine article from back then.

There is always a lot more to these kinds of analyses than the way you tend to come at them, Mr. MacWood. I realize you're trying to make a name for yourself but you will never get away with it the way you've been going about it with these courses and with the kind of people we have on this particular website.

Again, as I've said so many times before, if you want to do a real historical analysis of the architecture of a course it makes no sense at all to totally avoid the club itself as you have done with all these subjects and threads.



  
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 10:57:29 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2008, 11:07:40 AM »
"The W-hampton Biarritz was a single green with this sort of inverted horseshoe bunkering around the front - totally different bunkering than any other they built."


GeorgeB:

It has been quite a few years now but I vaguely recall that Mike Rewinski was constantly puzzled as to whether W-hampton's biarritz had a green section in what may be considered the front. Frankly, I can't really remember if this biarritz even had a swale in it. I don't believe Mountain Lakes's did originally even though Brian Silva put one in fairly recently.

As to the mounding at W-hampton it is probably important to understand what was there originally and what was later removed by ensuing club committees as well as what Mike Rewinski put back himself which he most certainly did because he told me and showed it to me asking me what I thought of the look of it.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2008, 11:30:07 AM »
If you are speaking about the "mounding" between the outgoing and incoming first three holes some of it was put in for "safety" reasons and if I remember correctly is was done by Geoff Cornish and company a long time ago. The club may have augmented some of it later - not sure about that.

We recommended cutting into some of that mounding in order to create more width and option on some of those six holes.

Banks also touched up some places on this course when he built the Oneck course in 1927.

Unlike many courses in the 20' this club/course had a lot of play, even in the beginning years, which is why they eventually built the Oneck (neck) course.

That was a huge landfill operation on a low piece of land but had some excellent holes in its design.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Thomas MacWood

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2008, 11:30:30 AM »
George
Nice picture of the horseshoe bunker. I was doing a little checking of Barker's plan for the redesign of Detroit GC and it has a number of similar features. The old 8th at Detroit had a similar flying wedge bunkering arrangement which is one of unique features at WCC (#15). Detroit also had a couple of horseshoe bunkers (I believe the old 12th at GCGC is the inspiration for this feature) and the old 9th at Detroit was a punchbowl par-3 as is #3 WCC. To my knowledge neither Raynor or Macdonald ever designed a punchbowl par-3.

TEPaul

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2008, 11:49:18 AM »
George:

As to some of the mounding on the course presently, just check with Mike Rewinski. He can tell you all about what he did. I believe he can even tell you what once was and what was eventually taken out before he got involved. It's too bad MikeR isn't still on here as he was years ago.

TEPaul

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2008, 11:59:49 AM »
A golf course that had a punchbowl green very similar to W-hampton's #3 par 3 punchbowl was Myopia's par 4 #10 which preceded W-hampton's punchbowl by probably fifteen years. Did Raynor know Leeds? One would certainly think so since C.B. MacDonald certainly did and in the beginning Myopia most certainly caught those early architects' attention!

Eventually, that Myopia green was redesigned due to constant problems with ice collection and winter kill.

Thomas MacWood

Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2008, 12:55:18 PM »
TE
I think you may have missed the point. No one is saying Macdonald, Raynor or Barker invented the punchbowl green, rather Macdonald and Raynor never produced a punchbowl par-3, at least thats my understanding. Where as Barker designed one at Detroit. 

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: West Hampton Golf Club
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2008, 12:56:12 PM »
Raynor designed a punchbowl par 3 at  Southampton. The hole at Westhampton is also similar to a punchbowl par 3 at Quogue Field Club.  

Perhaps on trips to and from Westhampton, Raynor passed the Quogue Field Club and took inspiration that he incorporated into Westhampton.

Maybe RB Wilson or Hepburn designed Westhampton.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 12:58:50 PM by SPDB »