Weak holes at Pebble Beach

[Chip Gaskins]

Pat-

I could post rebuttals for days/weeks/months and I am sure I would never convince you otherwise about Pebble.

Being that I am not a trained golf course architect I do, fortunately or unfortunately, look at everything through a golfers eyes.

I will never win debating you that a bunker should be 1.5 feet deep versus 4 feet deep.  So I am going to take the Sarah Palin approach and say simply (very simply) those holes add very little to the course comparatively speaking.  You realize you are in the drivers seat on this by making me try and dissect four very bland holes from an architectural standpoint.  I am not foolish enough to try and pick them apart in an amateur  way on this forum which is full of real trained and good architects.  I will simply leave at this.  Its kind of like porn, you know it when you see it, and those 4-5 holes simply aren't world class.  Period.

Chip

[Bob_Huntley]

Chip,

I am not sure how many times you have played Pebble Beach and at what time of the year and in what weather conditions.

I came to Pebble from Africa in April of 1963. I wrote an article for South Africa Golfer at that time. I remember that I remarked how expensive golf was in America. I was aghast that the green  fee was US$7.00 and the caddie fee came to US$10.00. I played the course, shot an even par 72 and fell passionately in love with the place. I vowed that one day I would live and die there. I have lived here for a long time, I can only hope that I can afford to die here.

Having played Pebble Beach in various tournaments I wonder how many of the nay-sayers have done likewise. It is my opinion that those who down grade the course do so without much familiarity of the layout. It is almost like knocking points off of the perfect ten of Bo Derek because she has one breast just a wee bit larger than the other.

If Pebble is not a ten then neither is Cypress.

Bob

 

[Rich Goodale]

Chip,

I am not sure how many times you have played Pebble Beach and at what time of the year and in what weather conditions.

I came to Pebble from Africa in April of 1963. I wrote an article for South Africa Golfer at that time. I remember that I remarked how expensive golf was in America. I was aghast that the green  fee was US$7.00 and the caddie fee came to US$10.00. I played the course, shot an even par 72 and fell passionately in love with the place. I vowed that one day I would live and die there. I have lived here for a long time, I can only hope that I can afford to die here.

Having played Pebble Beach in various tournaments I wonder how many of the nay-sayers have done likewise. It is my opinion that those who down grade the course do so without much familiarity of the layout. It is almost like knocking points off of the perfect ten of Bo Derek because she has one breast just a wee bit larger than the other.

If Pebble is not a ten then neither is Cypress.

Bob

 

Amen--particularly the last statement.

[Mike Sweeney]

Just played it the one time and loved it having read many of the comments on here beforehand. My only lasting disappointment was #17. Because of Watson and seeing it so many times on TV, I had built it into Cypress #16 type of territory. It surely did not reach that level and I would like to play it again someday with my son to see if my memory remains the same or changes.

[Chip Gaskins]

Bob, Rich, Pat-

I have stepped in my own shit on this one.  I did not in anyway mean to offend you guys about Pebble.  I have played it once in perfect 75 degree windless day a month after Sept. 11th and walked it maybe a half a dozen times for the AT&T.  You guys have countless rounds there and obviously have become very familiar with some of the hard to see endearing features of some of the holes that I mentioned.  I know when I am swimming up and stream, and I am, so I will get out of the pool.


Chip

[Andy Troeger]

I agree with those that don't feel there are weak holes at Pebble Beach--like any course it has holes that are better than others. #15 is my least favorite, but even that one has an interesting green. The only reason I can see for disliking the 11th is that it comes after #4-10. Its a fabulous hole with an angled green that makes the tee shot important (by keeping it left).

The 14th would be the best par five on most courses, if a favored architect built that green we'd praise it here for days on end. #13 green has significant slope toward the ocean. Try approaching that green from the right side of the fairway and see if you think there's no strategy there.

If you told me I could go back to any course I've played I'd pick Cypress with Pebble a close second. Nothing else would even enter the conversation.

[Jeff Tang]

17 was disappointing for me because it's so flat, you can't really see the ocean well from the tee.  But I think it's a good golf hole, I certainly wouldn't consider it weak.

While I agree that 1 is not a great hole I did find the tee shot to be cool right outside the clubhouse and with people watching and with the excitement of starting a round at Pebble I think it's a fun hole to play.  Plus, I also found the green to be tricky.

[George Pazin]

Having played Pebble Beach in various tournaments I wonder how many of the nay-sayers have done likewise.

This is one of my all time favorite comments. I think I will be amending my tagline.

Chip -

I don't think you offended Bob, Pat, etc., they are just offering a different opinion. That's what makes this site great.

[Bob_Huntley]

Chip,

I second George Pazin's previous comment.  I cannot comment on the other worthies who are in agreement with me on this matter but you certainly have not offended me.

You gave your considered opinion and it is welcomed, no matter how wrong your argument seems to me.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

17 was disappointing for me because it's so flat, you can't really see the ocean well from the tee.  But I think it's a good golf hole, I certainly wouldn't consider it weak.

Jeff,

If you want to see the ocean, might I suggest that you book a cruise with Tom Huckaby 

While I agree that 1 is not a great hole I did find the tee shot to be cool right outside the clubhouse and with people watching and with the excitement of starting a round at Pebble I think it's a fun hole to play.  Plus, I also found the green to be tricky.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Over exposure is PBGL's greatest weakness. If it were as private as CPC or PV one wonders how it would be perceived. Think about it. The scale and collection of great holes is remarkable.

Tom,

I think that's a great point.

The 12th is the most disapointing hole for me, but of course that is relatively speaking.

Nothing about Pebble Beach disappointed me except when the seagull stole my snack.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chip,

First, I'm not offended by anything you've typed, so don't worry about it.

Pat-

I could post rebuttals for days/weeks/months and I am sure I would never convince you otherwise about Pebble.

You are correct.

Being that I am not a trained golf course architect I do, fortunately or unfortunately, look at everything through a golfers eyes.

I also have that ability

I will never win debating you that a bunker should be 1.5 feet deep versus 4 feet deep.  So I am going to take the Sarah Palin approach and say simply (very simply) those holes add very little to the course comparatively speaking. 

I think you have to step back and view them in the context of the overall routing to start with.

They certainly don't detract from the course.  I think they're meritorious holes.

You realize you are in the drivers seat on this by making me try and dissect four very bland holes from an architectural standpoint.  I am not foolish enough to try and pick them apart in an amateur  way on this forum which is full of real trained and good architects. 

I will simply leave at this.  Its kind of like porn, you know it when you see it, and those 4-5 holes simply aren't world class.  Period.

First, it's not porn, it's obscenity.

Second, to state that because those 4-5 holes aren't WORLD CLASS, ergo, they're weak holes is preposterous.

Can you name a golf course where EVERY hole is WORLD CLASS ?

[Anthony Gray]

  Can't a woman have too much cosmetic surgery? One of Tom Doak's recent comments on RCD was if it is a ten then why do they keep making changes?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Can't a woman have too much cosmetic surgery?

If, at 84, she's just as attractive as she was in her early years, then the answer is no.

One of Tom Doak's recent comments on RCD was if it is a ten then why do they keep making changes?

Perhaps to keep up with the changing standards that courses are judged by ?

[Anthony Gray]

    No 1 and 2 at PB have to be stronger than 1 and 2 at Pinehurst.

[John Goodman]

I think Pebble's 1 and 2 are fine holes, but Pinehurst's are better.  2 at Pinehurst is one of the strongest par 4s on a course full of strong par 4s.  It's one of the five hundred best holes in the world, if you believe George Peper.

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat - note we seem to be in total agreement about Pebble Beach in terms of the overall quality of the golf course, and lack of "weak" holes.

Now as for how we get to this common assessment, well... is it not a testament to the place that we can think of it so differently yet each still find it great?

TH

[Anthony Gray]

I think Pebble's 1 and 2 are fine holes, but Pinehurst's are better.  2 at Pinehurst is one of the strongest par 4s on a course full of strong par 4s.  It's one of the five hundred best holes in the world, if you believe George Peper.

   But it lacks goal posts.

[Anthony Gray]

    Will Old Macdonald have one.

[Anthony Gray]

    Will Old Macdonald have one.

     
   Sorry!  Wrong discussion. I thought I was on the Biarritz question.

[John Goodman]

    Will Old Macdonald have one.

Unfortunately, no goalpost . . .

[David_Elvins]

Anyone want to come to the defense of the 12th?

I didn't like it at all.  What is good about it?

(I thought the rest of the course was fantastic)

[Sean Leary]

Anyone want to come to the defense of the 12th?

I didn't like it at all.  What is good about it?

(I thought the rest of the course was fantastic)

Didn't like it, or didn't think it was great?

Have a hard time understanding someone not liking it. I think its ok, nothing special, but not bad.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - note we seem to be in total agreement about Pebble Beach in terms of the overall quality of the golf course, and lack of "weak" holes.

Now as for how we get to this common assessment, well... is it not a testament to the place that we can think of it so differently yet each still find it great?



Tom,

I've found that most who feel the golf course isn't up to par focus on the collateral issues and not the golf course itself.

Some focus on the cost, others the cart path curbing, others the difficulty of getting on when they want, etc., etc..

The golf course is spectacular.

One that I wouldn't mind playing every day ...... weather permitting  

[David_Elvins]

Anyone want to come to the defense of the 12th?

I didn't like it at all.  What is good about it?

(I thought the rest of the course was fantastic)

Didn't like it, or didn't think it was great?

Have a hard time understanding someone not liking it. I think its ok, nothing special, but not bad.

I thought the fronting bunker and small green seemed ridiculous for a par 3 of that length.  Of course, I  didn't play it so am open to the opinion of others.