[Anthony Gray]

   Some say PB is not a 10 because of some weak holes. So what are the weak holes and why are they so weak?


   Personaly I think the routing compliments the blend of strong and weak holes. I prefer an easier start to get you comfortable with your game. Which PB has. Secoundly you get to concentrate on golf the first three holes before the view sweeps you away. Then after the stretch of holes along the water I've had enough I don't really need more strong holes until I catch my breath....So in short I believe the weaker holes compliment the routing and aid the experience.

[Tom Huckaby]

Anthony:

I tend to agree with you.  I just don't have the strength to argue you this yet again.  This exact subject has been discussed dozens of times in this forum.

You're new, you had no way of knowing that, so no harm done.   I just gave a long sigh when I saw this... lord give me strength to allow Wayne Morrisson, Matt Ward and the other Pebble naysayers to have their say without rebuttal.

Just take it like this:  whatever they say, put me down as 100% disagreement.

 

[PThomas]

repeat after me Huck:Serenity now, serenity now.......

[Tom Huckaby]

repeat after me Huck:Serenity now, serenity now.......

thanks.  Let's just hope I don't have...

insanity later.

 

[Anthony Gray]

  Thanks Tom,
   
     I hate being the new guy!!!!  That yellow newbie thing drives me crazy.

[Tim Leahy]

First let me say that Pebble is one of my favorite courses and I personally think the great holes make up for any weak ones, but we are talking tens here so here goes. No. 1, 2, 11 and 15 are not great holes, average at best. I could honestly skip those holes and not miss them.

[JESII]

The hole I have played in my life that exceeded expectations the most...#6 at Pebble Beach.

Holes that disappointed...#1, 11, 12.

[George Pazin]

The hole I have played in my life that exceeded expectations the most...#6 at Pebble Beach.

This hole was the biggest surprise to me, when I saw Pebble in person for the first time (walked it - couldn't afford to play). The hill leading up to the green simply has to be seen. My friend who walked with me felt the same way - the 6th was the hole that stood out.

Can't say I noticed any weakness in the course, but I didn't study the other holes as much as the ocean holes. I've always had the sense that most people use the term weakness in a relative sense when discussing Pebble. But every course has holes which are stronger than others; that doesn't necessarily mean the "lesser" holes are weak.

[JESII]

No doubt George.

[Matt_Ward]

Pebble is a classic testament of extremes -- when it's good it's divine -- I've already opined that the combination of the 6th, 7th and 8th holes -- is one of, if not the best stretch, of where you have a par-3, par-4 and par-5 hole in some sort of order.

On the flip side ...

JES II has pointed out a few of the holes that detract from the total time there. No doubt I have heard the argument -- Anthony Gray makes it this time -- that the holes that are less so only make the better holes than much better and that the inferior holes serve as some sort of warm-up for what is to come.

No matter -- Pebble Beach does have its moment but for a course to be a 10, for me at least, it needs to have no discernible weaknesses -- the layout does have them and they do, despite what its proponent say, do matter and do have an impact on its net overall assessment. No 10 for me -- 8 to 9 max. Candidly, that's not suggesting the course is dogfood by any means.

[Anthony Gray]

  Number 11 is not that easy. For the left to right player it is difficult to keep the ball on the left side off the tee. The approach from the right is almost impossible. The green has the most severe slope on the course, so you need to keep the ball under the cup. I think it suffers from what precedes it.

[Adam Clayman]

Those who associate difficulty with greatness are missing a major lobe in their cerebellum. The green on #1 is just as good as anything at Merion. #2, #5 and #15 are holes that get you were you need to get, for routing purposes. The new fifth is a JOKE in that regard unless you care about playing along a cove. Which I do not. 11 and 12 have a certain something (mojo) that requires multiple plays to appreciate. It may have to do with the changes of direction, but clearly, any let down in focus with foc you.

Apparently, Pebble is currently being butchered by some type of self-flagellating hillbilly, or, at least a committee, who fear one.

It would not shock me to see PBGL fall off the face of the first page of the country's best, because of those recent changes.

[David Stamm]

Apparently, Pebble is currently being butchered by some type of self-flagellating hillbilly, or, at least a committee, who fear one.

It would not shock me to see PBGL fall off the face of the first page of the country's best, because of those recent changes.

Adam, if that's what it takes to get them to stop w/ these "improvements", so be it. I gather you'd agree w/ me on this.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam:

What butchering has been done / is being done?

I know about 15.  
I know about 3.
I just saw the pics of 6.

What else is there?

Each of those changes scare me, and each seem to me to be a clear net negative; though I doubt any will be enough to make PB fall off the first page (which I take to mean go less than #50?).  Pebble is still pretty well-loved, by raters and real golfers alike.  I can't see that changing that much.

So anyway, I haven't been down there in awhile - what other butchery is afoot?

TH

ps - notice the lack of rebuttal re #5.  I come in peace.  

[Adam Clayman]

I too came in peace with my qualification of the cove.
 
Those changes are enough, but the first page meant top 10. There were some earlier changes at #2 (goal post trees) and 18 (bunkers) that while subtle, matter.

[Tom Huckaby]

I too came in peace with my qualification of the cove.
 
Those changes are enough, but the first page meant top 10. There were some earlier changes at #2 (goal post trees) and 18 (bunkers) that while subtle, matter.

Gotcha - thanks.  And yeah I do dig the cove, so thanks for that also. 

So why do they keep screwing with this fantastic golf course?  #5 of course we all can understand - love it or hate it, the land swap was gonna happen.  But I just don't get the justification for any of the others.  Can you make any sense of it?


TH

[George Pazin]

Gotcha - thanks.  And yeah I do dig the cove, so thanks for that also. 

So why do they keep screwing with this fantastic golf course?  #5 of course we all can understand - love it or hate it, the land swap was gonna happen.  But I just don't get the justification for any of the others.  Can you make any sense of it?


TH

The urge to tinker - everybody thinks they're smarter than the last guy. Few are.

[Tom Huckaby]

George:

But do people really have that much hubris that they tinker willy-nilly with a masterpiece?  I mean I guess so given what's going on... but is there that little respect for history/tradition? 

It still really amazes and saddens me.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

C'mon guys, why are you avoiding the 5th hole.

Clearly the newer version is the better version...don't think there is any disputing that.   

[Ted Kramer]

I'm witht Tom.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony:

I tend to agree with you.  I just don't have the strength to argue you this yet again.  This exact subject has been discussed dozens of times in this forum.

You're new, you had no way of knowing that, so no harm done.   I just gave a long sigh when I saw this... lord give me strength to allow Wayne Morrisson, Matt Ward and the other Pebble naysayers to have their say without rebuttal.

Just take it like this:  whatever they say, put me down as 100% disagreement.

I don't think there are any weak holes at Pebble Beach.

Some might not be as good as others, but, I don't see an inherent weakness in any holes.

The same could be said for Shinnecock, NGLA, ANGC and other courses where there are some world class holes.

But, the existance of world class, great and good holes doesn't mean that those holes not attaining the loftiest perch are WEAK holes.

Could someone identify the weak holes and tell me what makes them weak ?

[Bart Bradley]

Interesting, the mix of people willing to weigh in once again is mostly in the pro-Pebble camp.  I have posted on this before...Pebble has no weak holes.  It has some all world holes and some just solid holes in my opinion...nothing I could begin to call weak.  I understand why some people give it a 9 and I don't know if its a 9 or 10 for me ...but it is a truly special, great, one-of-a kind place.  The tingles you get on 6,7,8,9,10 and 18 are on par with the best golf experiences of my life.  When you climb the hill on 6 you know you are going to spend the next hour in heaven.  I can't say that most days.  Can you?

Bart

[Chip Gaskins]

Pat-

I am taking a great big deep breath as I type this....knowing I am going against the Mr Pat Mucci....but here it goes:

11 is a weak uphill semi-short dogleg right where the golfer picks a house in the distance to aim at and hopes the ball finds the fairway.  A short iron to the green and if the pin is cut on the front of the green and you end up above it is almost a sure three putt for most mortals.

12 is the weakest on the course.  from the back tees it requires a mid iron (long iron for me) to a green that simply doesn't seem to hold shots unless you can hit them Greg Norman high.  even if it did, it doesn't seem to be a hole on a "10" course to me.  Its either in the front bunker or long in the rough.  ZZZzzz

13 is a dead straight hole where the fairway bunkers have very little strategic value in my opinion unless you simply hook your drive.  the green, is well just a green, i don't remember there is much about it honestly except that you can see the ocean across the way.

14 is just a long sweeping par 5 that can't be reached (no risk / reward) and is simply driver, 3 wood, and then a hit and hope wedge to the goofiest green on the course.

There aren't terrible holes by any stretch, but for $525 and a Top 10 in World ranking....not so much.

Let the shit storm begin....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat-

I am taking a great big deep breath as I type this....knowing I am going against the Mr Pat Mucci....but here it goes:

11 is a weak uphill semi-short dogleg right where the golfer picks a house in the distance to aim at and hopes the ball finds the fairway.  A short iron to the green and if the pin is cut on the front of the green and you end up above it is almost a sure three putt for most mortals.

Have you played the hole ?

If so, while you've offered a discription, you didn't state what makes it weak.

12 is the weakest on the course.  from the back tees it requires a mid iron (long iron for me) to a green that simply doesn't seem to hold shots unless you can hit them Greg Norman high.  even if it did, it doesn't seem to be a hole on a "10" course to me.  Its either in the front bunker or long in the rough.  ZZZzzz

Again I'm puzzled by not knowing what's weak about the hole.

Are you talking architecturally, or from a scoring perspective ?

13 is a dead straight hole where the fairway bunkers have very little strategic value in my opinion unless you simply hook your drive.  the green, is well just a green, i don't remember there is much about it honestly except that you can see the ocean across the way.

What about the cant of the green ?
The slope of the fairway,
The depth of the bunkers
OB right ?

How is the hole weak ?  I remain in a Huckaby like state of confusion ?

14 is just a long sweeping par 5 that can't be reached (no risk / reward) and is simply driver, 3 wood, and then a hit and hope wedge to the goofiest green on the course.

Remind me, how many times have you played this hole ?

What about the fronting greenside bunker ?

Why is the green goofy ?

Especially when one is, as you state, only hitting a wedge into it.

There aren't terrible holes by any stretch, but for $525 and a Top 10 in World ranking....not so much.

Money is immaterial to the issue.

Unless you want to weigh it against the $ 650,000 it takes to get into Sebonack and the merits of the first hole.

It's not a cost/value exercise.

It's trying to support or reject the opinion that there are weak holes on PB.

I just need to know the definition of weak and how it applies to the holes you've listed.

[Thomas MacWood]

Over exposure is PBGL's greatest weakness. If it were as private as CPC or PV one wonders how it would be perceived. Think about it. The scale and collection of great holes is remarkable. The 12th is the most disapointing hole for me, but of course that is relatively speaking.

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