what course do you give a Doak 10 to that Tom didn't?

[PThomas]

simple enough question..Tom gave out 12 10's, and lets assume that Sand Hills and Pac Dunes are also 10s, as Tom hinted in the other thread

so what other course(s) have YOU PLAYED that you would give a 10 to, and why?

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Oakmont for the reasons I stated in the other thread.

The course gets a very bad rep because of the singular focus on difficulty but the
improvements there over the last few years justify such a lofty mark.

If people don't see a 10 there it's likely they have not seen the "new" Oakmont or if they
have then the real failure is because many of these same people can't stand playing a place
that strips away all veneer unless good shots are thoroughly thought out and executed soundly.

[Chip Gaskins]

Royal County Down, because it is the most natural, tough, and majestic place I have ever set foot.

Ballyneal, I can't think of one thing on the course that isn't close to perfect.

[Anthony Fowler]

Prairie Dunes.

[Matt_Ward]

Chip:

In rating CD -- do you give the course a free pass with the 17th -- the hole that looks like a Florida one with the inane pond -- and the overkill of bunkers on the 18th.

Love the layout but a 10 should be totally bulletproof.

Just a thought to consider.
 

[Chip Gaskins]

Matt-

Very fair question but to me that pond doesn't detract that much honestly.  Its doesn't really come into play or change the way a golfer plays the hole and though it seems out of place it just isn't that big of a deal to me.  And I actually like 18th as well.  The place is just magic....pond and all.

Maybe it even inspired Pat Ruddy to install the pond at European Club
Chip

[Tom Huckaby]

Chip:

In rating CD -- do you give the course a free pass with the 17th -- the hole that looks like a Florida one with the inane pond -- and the overkill of bunkers on the 18th.

Love the layout but a 10 should be totally bulletproof.

Just a thought to consider.
 

Not true, as confirmed by Tom Doak in this forum.  He said that a course could definitely have a less than great hole or two and still be a 10 - upon MY suggestion, after querying re such and how people were getting too caught up in the "if you missed even one hole you'd miss something" part of the short definition.  Dammit I should have saved the post... if someone could find that I would be forever indepted as we re-worded the definition for 10 and it was going to be my lasting legacy in the game of golf.

In any case, if you are going by Doak definitions, then no, a 10 does not need to be totally bulletproof.

TH

[Michael Dugger]

I thought RCD and Oakmont did get 10's???

The obvious selections are those which received 9's, like Augusta, Seminole and Pebble.

A lot of people love Friars Head, but is it 10 worthy???

[Shane Wright]

Matt-

Very fair question but to me that pond doesn't detract that much honestly.  Its doesn't really come into play or change the way a golfer plays the hole and though it seems out of place it just isn't that big of a deal to me.  And I actually like 18th as well.  The place is just magic....pond and all.

Maybe it even inspired Pat Ruddy to install the pond at European Club
Chip

I agree with Chip's sentiments - RCD is magical.  Pond doesn't make an ounce of difference to me.  RCD is bulletproof.  

Anthony - I'd give Prairie Dunes a 9.5 but I'm right there with you...I think it is one of the best.  

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Nice try amigo.

But since we are adding courses then the definition of a perfect course should be exactly that -- perfect.

When you have major holes then the issue becomes is the rest of a layout capable in carrying the course beyond those holes.

Second item -- there are courses, few truly, that do not have any discernible weaknesses.

Shane:

I think you guys are sincere but the 17th is out of character with the rest of the place -- the hole could be something you find in greater Orlando - and the 18th is just bombardment of bunkers for the sake of even more bunkers.

Let me reiterate before the rocks get thrown my way -- I love the place and have said so many times over. But a ten means no gaps whatsoever -- RCD has at least two of them.

[wsmorrison]

I would take Pinehurst #2 off my list and possibly Muirfield if I wanted to stay close to the number Tom proposed.  I would add Oakmont, North Berwick and Royal St. Georges.

[Tom Huckaby]

Read em and weep, Matt:

7/11/2008

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35496.35.html


In case you don't want to follow the link, here's the text:

GCA 7/11/12008


Tom H:  You are right about the definition of a "10" in The Confidential Guide.  People are always quoting it to tell me why some course is worthy, or not worthy; and I really didn't mean it that way.  Ballybunion is one of the 10's on the Doak scale (and probably not the only one) where there are a couple of holes of which I don't think so highly ... but I still gave it a 10, so my definition must be not quite right.

I guess a better definition would be that every hole has to add something of value to the course as a whole.  However, I do not have enough cash on hand to buy back all of the Confidential Guides and make the edit.


LOL!

Of course we cannot and shall not have all of the CG's edited... but given that the coin of the realm IN THIS FORUM for evaulating golf courses does seem to be your scale... and people do misapply this so often... how about one and all HERE give up on this "every hole must be fantastic" way of looking at a Doak 10, and rather look at it as Tom now explains (which I always kinda figured, btw - patting myself on the back):

10: Nearly perfect.  Every hole at the very least adds something of value to the course as a hole. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.

Whaddya think?  Start here and perhaps others get the idea...



Feel free to do your own Ward scale, and 10 can mean absolute perfection.  But the Doak scale does not mean that at all.

I'll take a simple "I was wrong" reply.

 

[Shane Wright]

Huck:

Nice try amigo.

But since we are adding courses then the definition of a perfect course should be exactly that -- perfect.

When you have major holes then the issue becomes is the rest of a layout capable in carrying the course beyond those holes.

Second item -- there are courses, few truly, that do not have any discernible weaknesses.

Shane:

I think you guys are sincere but the 17th is out of character with the rest of the place -- the hole could be something you find in greater Orlando - and the 18th is just bombardment of bunkers for the sake of even more bunkers.

Let me reiterate before the rocks get thrown my way -- I love the place and have said so many times over. But a ten means no gaps whatsoever -- RCD has at least two of them.

Matt - We can agree to disagree, no problems.  But I am 100% CLEAR now about your opinion that #17 at RCD is equivalent to something in FLORIDA.  I just wanted you to know that I am clear on that now.

thank you.

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Thanks for hanging yourself -- it makes my reply so much easier  ...

"I guess a better definition would be that every hole has to add something of value to the course as a whole."

Yes, the two holes at RCD I have opined on fail that test.

Shane:

My pleasure - glad to make sure you had no confusion on where I am coming from 

[Anthony Gray]

     Wayne


North Berwick....excellent choice.......Why can't it crack the top 100 ?

[TX Golf]

Tom,

Pretty funny that after Tom D. informed you of being his new "editor", you spelled "whole" as "hole". Not trying to be a dick but thought is was pretty funny. By the way, I agree with you in this thread.... as there is not a perfect course anywhere in the world. As far as I am concerned perfection doesn't exist anywhere.

[Tom Huckaby]

Robert - I was so excited to get the position, I failed my first test.  But hey, I didn't want the job... I just wanted to clarify that definition.  And I am with you - perfection doesn't exist - but I'd take it farther and say perfection shouldn't be striven for. 



Matt - that was as response even worse than the worst of Mucci.  We weren't talking about any specific course - we were talking about your insistence that perfection is required for a course to be a Doak 10. 

Come on man, you are not perfect.  Admit that you had this wrong.  Shit Doak says it himself.  You said:

then the definition of a perfect course should be exactly that -- perfect.

Doak says

Ballybunion is one of the 10's on the Doak scale (and probably not the only one) where there are a couple of holes of which I don't think so highly ... but I still gave it a 10, so my definition must be not quite right.

If you can't see that that means perfection is NOT required, then there is no hope for you.  But if you really do need this type of Muccian I can never be wrong education, then please do go read the rest of the thread in the URL I posted.

Sorry man, you're wrong.  And it's OK... it would be a very very crazy world if you were indeed perfect yourself.

 

[Rich Goodale]

I'd elevate Carnoustie and Pebble Beach and demote Pinehurst #2 and maybe Ballybunion.

[Kalen Braley]

I'll beat Shiv to the punch..

When its so bad, its good!!!

Reverse Jans...

[Jon Wiggett]

Huck:

Yes, the two holes at RCD I have opined on fail that test.

In your opinion but not for Doak as he gave a ten

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I dont mind putting myself up there for criticism...Royal Birkdale is a 10 in my book.
I know that certainmly is not agreed upon by Tom...but so be it.

I think it is a golf course that is supremely fair, and difficult for players of all levels.
The flow of the course is wonderful, short walks from tee to green, the wind crosses the course play at all angles.
A wonderful set of par threes, great variety in par four length and a good set of par fives, although this would be it's weakest point.

The beauty of the dunes the finest in England.
The new green on 17 may be the hint that I now give it a 9.5 instead of a ten, but because of what the course has meant to me personally since a kid...it remains as my 10.

[Chip Gaskins]

Huck:

Yes, the two holes at RCD I have opined on fail that test.

In your opinion but not for Doak as he gave a ten

Here are the courses that are 10s in the Confidential Guide:

St. Andrews Old Course
Muirfield
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
National Golf Links of America
Shinnecock Hills
Pine Valley
Merion (East)
Pinehurst (No. 2)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point

[Jon Wiggett]

Huck:

Yes, the two holes at RCD I have opined on fail that test.

In your opinion but not for Doak as he gave a ten

Here are the courses that are 10s in the Confidential Guide:

St. Andrews Old Course
Muirfield
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
National Golf Links of America
Shinnecock Hills
Pine Valley
Merion (East)
Pinehurst (No. 2)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point

Sorry Chip, you are right.

[Chip Gaskins]

Huck:

Yes, the two holes at RCD I have opined on fail that test.

In your opinion but not for Doak as he gave a ten

Here are the courses that are 10s in the Confidential Guide:

St. Andrews Old Course
Muirfield
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
National Golf Links of America
Shinnecock Hills
Pine Valley
Merion (East)
Pinehurst (No. 2)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point

Sorry Chip, you are right.

Jon-  I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, I was just reposting on this particular thread Doak's list thats all, didn't mean to offend.

[Philippe Binette]

I would agree for Oakmont... unique, you can't miss a hole there.

Sand Hills would probably be a 10...

but I believe Wild Horse is a 10