Confidential Guide Tens

[Mark Chaplin]

I've been fortunate to play six

[Jon Wiggett]

I have also been lucky enough to play 6 of them.

[Rich Goodale]

I've played 3/4 of them and at least 3 of my 9 fall more than a bit short of perfection, but that's just my opinion.

[Andrew Mitchell]

I've been lucky enough to play four of them.

If the criteria for Doak 10 includes "If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing" how does Ballybunion qualify with the rather bland back to back par 5s on the front nine?

[wsmorrison]

St. Andrews Old Course
Muirfield
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
National Golf Links of America
Shinnecock Hills
Pine Valley
Merion (East)
Pinehurst (No. 2)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point

I've played 8 of them:  TOC, Muirfield, Dornoch, NGLA, Shinnecock Hills, Pine Valley, Merion and Pinehurst #2.  Of those courses, Pinehurst #2 is not a 10 in my book (if I were to write such a book).  Of the remaining 4 courses, I would prioritize seeing them as follows:

1.  Ballybunion
2.  Cypress Point
3.  Crystal Downs
4.  Royal Melbourne West (distance being a factor I do not ignore)

[Sean_A]

I have played six (I won't count Crystal Downs as I don't remember it).  None of them were perfect (no such thing imo) and only Merion would I put in my personal top 10, but this list can change.  Of the six, I think Ballybunion was the best based purely on architecture with Merion perhaps its equal. 

I have a sneaky feeling that the remaining six may impress me more as a group than the first group.  The problem is getting to play them!  I would be happy to play any of them, but somehow, being a Michigander I think I should see Crystal Downs sooner rather than later.

Ciao

[Chip Gaskins]

4.  Royal Melbourne West (distance being a factor I do not ignore)

Wayne-

What did you mean by "distance being a factor I do not ignore"?

Chip

[John_Conley]

Chip, Melbourne is far away.

[Chip Gaskins]

Got it.  I see now.

[Wayne Freeman]

 Having played all but Royal Melbourne I'm good with the list except I would substitute Royal County Down for Pinehurst#2- .  Of the recent course additions,  Ballyneal to me would merit being included in the list also.

[Matt_Ward]

JES II, Shane, et al:

The issue I have #17 is that it doesn't add anything to what you've already played. Candidly, the hole belongs more in Florida than it does in Northern Ireland. The pond inclusion is just a contrivance that seems force fed to make something into something more.

I salute the club for the new 16th -- and the comments mentioned earlier about the first few holes as the back nine begins is spot on -- although I don't see the 10th as being an exemplary par-3 -- it's solid but nothing more in my mind.

The 18th at RCD is simply bunker overkill -- again, look at the front nine and the placement of bunkers and the nature of the terrain -- it's more about selectivity rather than bunker bombardment. Is the 18th hole easy? No, not at all. But, it doesn't need to be, in my opinion, a statement of how to throw everything but the kitchen sink at the player when finishing such a wonderful round.

Shane -- you mentioned the 18th at Muirfield and I concur. It's a demanding hole but I don't find it to be architecturally compelling -- when I hold the 18th at Muirfield I can think of other stellar tough par-4's - the ones at Oakmont and WF/W, that offer a good bit more.

Guys, truthfully, when you hold up Dunluce at Portrush to County Down the New Castle layout gets a bit more brownie points because of the proximity of Dundrum Bay and the Mountain of Mourne. I love RCD but I see Portrush as the one layout where a ten is a good bit more possible. Just an opinion that's all.

[Chip Gaskins]

I can't see how 17 & 18 at Portrush are better than 17 & 18 at County Down.  I agree that silly pond is out of place, but according to Ran's profile it is natural.

[paul cowley]

ballyneal!

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

To all:

Y'all are more than welcome to put your thoughts on every course in the world in writing and submit yourselves to inquiry.  I've done it and it's not always as fun as you might imagine ... but I've stood by it for 20 years and will have to for many more.

P.S.  There are a lot of TERRIFIC golf courses which I only rated a nine ... there is nothing wrong with being a nine.

[paul cowley]

Tom....if you don't mind I'm going to stand down a little.....glad you are back but I' m feeling a little punchy......tired too!

All the best.....paul.

[Chip Gaskins]

ballyneal!

agreed!

[danielfaleman]

I see Pinehurst #2 as a Ten when it's set up as a US Open site. I've played RCD six times over the last twenty-two years, each round felt close to a religious experience, a Ten.

[Bob_Huntley]

I have played them all with the exception of Crystal Downs.

Bob Jenkins.

I think I have an unopened Guide in my library, if you are interested give me  an IM.

Bob

[Mark_F]

4.  Royal Melbourne West (distance being a factor I do not ignore)

It isn't so far when you are asleep, then when you wake up the women are warm and the beer is cold.

[John Kavanaugh]

Just gotta get a copy of the Confidential Guide, after a couple of years of hearing you talk about it. I keep thinking every time I enter a used book store I will find one sitting there for the taking. It now looks as though it is "pie in the sky" [where did that expression come from ?] so I am going to have to make the best deal possible on EBay or Craig's List.
Tom, are there any Stanley Thompson courses you have played often enough and may meet that criteria of a "10"? Any you may have played a few times you think could meet that test?

From a recent return to Capilano, I have renewed interest in Thompson and thought I would ask. I think that after a couple of years of hanging around here, I appreciate Cap more than I ever did before, especially with the options of playing short and letting the ball run up on the green.

I will renew my search for a Confidential Guide this weekend.

Bob Jenkins

Who is mrs freckles and why does she have a copy of the Confidential Guide?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=180293933926&Category=71104&_trksid=p3907.m29

[TX Golf]

John,

When looking at eBay last night I was thinking the same thing. How can "Mrs. Freckles" have a CD. Unbelievable

[Shane Wright]

JES II, Shane, et al:

The issue I have #17 is that it doesn't add anything to what you've already played. Candidly, the hole belongs more in Florida than it does in Northern Ireland. The pond inclusion is just a contrivance that seems force fed to make something into something more.

I salute the club for the new 16th -- and the comments mentioned earlier about the first few holes as the back nine begins is spot on -- although I don't see the 10th as being an exemplary par-3 -- it's solid but nothing more in my mind.

The 18th at RCD is simply bunker overkill -- again, look at the front nine and the placement of bunkers and the nature of the terrain -- it's more about selectivity rather than bunker bombardment. Is the 18th hole easy? No, not at all. But, it doesn't need to be, in my opinion, a statement of how to throw everything but the kitchen sink at the player when finishing such a wonderful round.

Shane -- you mentioned the 18th at Muirfield and I concur. It's a demanding hole but I don't find it to be architecturally compelling -- when I hold the 18th at Muirfield I can think of other stellar tough par-4's - the ones at Oakmont and WF/W, that offer a good bit more.

Guys, truthfully, when you hold up Dunluce at Portrush to County Down the New Castle layout gets a bit more brownie points because of the proximity of Dundrum Bay and the Mountain of Mourne. I love RCD but I see Portrush as the one layout where a ten is a good bit more possible. Just an opinion that's all.

Matt - I would have to agree with Chip - I love Portrush and think it is one of the stiffest tests of driving in the world, however, 17 and 18 are not better than 17 and 18 at RCD in my opinion.  18 at Portrush could probably use an infusion of bunkers similar to some of the changes in bunkering to #18 at RCD.  I am not familiar with the history of the design of the 18th at RCD, but if you were to take away most of the bunkers lining the fairway, many would probably say the hole is boring and needs more going on.  On that note, i will agree with you that the bunkering on #18 at RCD is a little different than the bunkering "theme" on the rest of the course but I don't think that is necessarily doesn't belong.  Just my thoughts.

[John Shimp]

Where does Oakmont fit?

[Mark Chaplin]

I'm ashamed to say I've been to Oz 6 times and RM 3 times, but never even travelled the hour to Ireland let alone played Bally B. Even worse a good friend is a member........head hanging in shame!

[Matt_Ward]

Shane:

You missed my point -- the greatness of Dunluce at Portrush is that it doesn't have to overdose the landscape with mindless bunkers on its finishing hole. How does having a minefield of endless bunkers at the concluding hole at RCD really add to its architectural qualities? Check out the holes that come before the final two holes at County Down and candidly you have a major melt down with the final two holes. Instead of the final two holes being a solid summary statement on what the day there has been you get a Florida type hole with the 17th and simply overkill with the finale.

Dunluce stays true to itself -- the character of the final two holes there is tied to what you have experienced prior with the holes that have come before it.

Look, I don't want to downplay the many top shelf virtues of County Down - it is a real gem of a layout but when the words perfection are uttered -- one has to see the final two holes there as being less rather than an equal or more compared to all the others.

John S:

In my mind, Oakmont would be a 10.

The recent tree clearing has certainly returned the club to the highest of levels. The recent Men's Open confirmed that for me.