Could Pine Valley survive, untouched if it were a typical local club ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Club cultures often dictate architecture.

With a different governance model and a broader spectrum of golfers playing the golf course, would the architectural features remain untouched ?

If PV was subjected to 40-60-80 years of typical memberhip whims, how much of the original course would remain ?

Which features would be on the hit list to be removed ?

I would think that the Sahara feature on # 7 and the DA on # 10 would be amongst the first to go.

Does this tell you anything about the governance model at most clubs ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I think the way Pine Valley is governed has a lot to do with it but so does the fact that the club has always had so much respect for George Crump, and that's always made changing his course less likely.

[CJ Carder]

Knowing very little about PV, could you guys maybe expand a bit on how the club is governed that keeps the architecture in tact?  I'd be very interested to hear that side and then maybe I could make a couple comments.   

[Tom_Doak]

In some respects, Pine Valley IS a typical local club.  It was started for a Philadelphia-area base of members, and Philadelphia has proven to have enough golfers to support one course modeled on extreme difficulty and heroic architecture.  The national members are a more recent add-on and they aren't necessary to the survival of the club.

Other cities have also proven big enough to support one "man-sized course" -- Pittsburgh has Oakmont, New York has Winged Foot, Chicago has Medinah.  The governance of these are not all exactly like Pine Valley's benevolent dictatorship, but they work anyway because all of the members joined out of respect for what the course is.  Yes, it's easier for Medinah to be changed because their governance is different -- but has it been changed because of governance, or because the course wasn't as good as Pine Valley?

Now, if a club like Pine Valley was in a town the size of Traverse City, it would probably fail miserably without a national membership or a deep-pocketed benefactor.  That's precisely why not many people even attempt to build a course like Pine Valley ... they all hedge their bets because they know there aren't enough 4-handicappers in their town to support a true Pine Valley.

[Matthew Hunt]

Maybe it is different over the pond, but it is possible to have a ‘man-sized’ course as a local club as shown by Royal County Down. For member of the Mourne and Royal County Down Ladies who play the majority of the rounds this the (only) local club, a lot of the RCD men may be of the same middle-class out of town model as the members of Pine Valley but yet their handicap profile is no different than the average club, if fact I believe there no players off scratch or better. Without the visitors I’m sure the fees would have to rise and we would not receive the same exemplary Greenkeeping standards all year round, but it could easily hold its place in the worlds elite courses.

[Mike_Cirba]

oops..posted a response to the wrong thread!   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Wouldn't any club that has gotten the national acclaim that PV has and had almost immediately be more prone to protect its heritage? Whereas a typical club that has guests come out and say negative things might be more apt to make changes?

[Patrick_Mucci]

In some respects, Pine Valley IS a typical local club. 

Tom Doak,

That's not even close to being an accurate statement.

There are no women golfers who play on a daily basis and I doubt Junior golfers are in abundance.

The number of local residents who are members is miniscule.
Philadelphia isn't the neighboring town or even close to Clementon.

It was started for a Philadelphia-area base of members, and Philadelphia has proven to have enough golfers to support one course modeled on extreme difficulty and heroic architecture. 

It's a destination golf course locate a considerable distance from Philadelphia, unless you consider a half hour to one hour drive as being just down the street.

The national members are a more recent add-on and they aren't necessary to the survival of the club.

National Members aren't a recent add on, they've been there for decades and decades.

Other cities have also proven big enough to support one "man-sized course" -- Pittsburgh has Oakmont, New York has Winged Foot, Chicago has Medinah. 

Would you say that the cross section of the membership at those three clubs comes remotely close to PV's ?

The governance of these are not all exactly like Pine Valley's benevolent dictatorship, but they work anyway because all of the members joined out of respect for what the course is. 

How would you compare the architectural alterations at Oakmont, WF and Medinah to those at PV ?

Yes, it's easier for Medinah to be changed because their governance is different -- but has it been changed because of governance, or because the course wasn't as good as Pine Valley?

Now, if a club like Pine Valley was in a town the size of Traverse City, it would probably fail miserably without a national membership or a deep-pocketed benefactor. 

Under that premise, Ballyneal, Sand Hills and others may soon perish

That's precisely why not many people even attempt to build a course like Pine Valley ... they all hedge their bets because they know there aren't enough 4-handicappers in their town to support a true Pine Valley.

That's not the issue, the issue is the durability of the architecture if the club had a typical local membership

[Bart Bradley]

Pat,

Here is the problem with the question:  Pine Valley is in no way your typical local club.  Is your question:  "If Pine Valley had only a typical local membership, would the course be altered?"

Or is your question, "if Pine Valley were a more typical golf couse, would it be altered"?

These are different questions....Because Pine Valley is NOT a typical golf course, I don't think any membership (local or national) would change it... It is a masterpiece and once so recognized, members or a "dictator" would be hesitant to change it...

I think your question is probably the former.  I think that, if the course itself were typical, it would have probably already been changed a great deal.

Bart

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat,

No matter how brilliant the architecture, some bone head with an outsize ego could well get elected President and create havoc with his idea of improvements. I think it is only because of men of stern resolve such as John Arthur Brown, Ernie Ransom and Warner Shelly that PV remains virgo intacta.

Bob

[Dan Herrmann]

Pat - of course it would have changed.  PV has, by and large, a membership of highly skilled golfers.  If it were a typical club, there's be 20s and up out there.  (I'll leave gender out of this discussion, but it DOES play a role because the course can be "tougher" without a 40 handicapper lady out there).

I saw early conceptual drawing of our 6th hole -a long uphill par 5 with a huge bunker that takes up 2/3 of the fairway.  The original drawing showed the bunker across the entire fairway.  Yep - an homage to HHA at PV.

When I asked Gil about the change, he chuckled and said that he had to soften things for the everyday player (like me ).

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:  I guess you missed my point.  My point was that the style of architecture at Pine Valley (and other courses) has had a lot to do with determining the nature of the membership, and thus the desire to preserve it as a difficult test.  That's why the members joined it in the first place, because they appreciated a difficult test.  If they didn't, Mr. Brown would not let them join.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

The number of local members at Pine Valley is not at all minuscule (note the spelling) by any reasonable definition.

The course is 14 miles from City Hall, Philadelphia and is less than 25 miles from Merion GC, which as you know is west of Philadelphia.  It takes less than 1/2 hour to travel from the center of Philadelphia to Pine Valley. 

[G Jones]

The number of local residents who are members is miniscule.
Philadelphia isn't the neighboring town or even close to Clementon.
...
It's a destination golf course locate a considerable distance from Philadelphia, unless you consider a half hour to one hour drive as being just down the street.

[/quote]

I know that in america the trend seems to be to live pretty much on a golf course (i don't honestly know why, it seems a little tacky to me), but for most people living in london, new york, philadelphia, or any other large city for that matter, many of the best local golf clubs can take at least half an hour or hour to get to.  As a brit who has visited PV on multiple occaisions (always while staying in Philly), the thought that PV could be considered as not a local philadelphia area course is quite amusing! I mean I know that the US has a reputation for their convenience culture, but...

And while PV undeniably has a sizable national membership, in my experience almost everyone I have met there falls within the (or at least my) definition of a local... ie. Lives or works within an hour or so drive.

[Jim Nugent]

A (somewhat) related question:

If Pine Valley held a famous golf tournament every year that was considered a major and got world-wide TV coverage, would the course remain untouched? 

[Bradley Anderson]

Pat,

Wasn't there a stop on the train route right near Pine Valley for the Philadelphia members to use?

Back in those days getting to the golf course often involved the use of trains. Some of the clubs along the north shore line in Chicago actually had a horse and wagon arrangement that ran back and forth between the club and train station all day. That is so cool I think.

Don't you think everyone knew up front what they were getting when they joined Pine Valley?

[Thomas MacWood]

Not hosting any major championships is another reason the course has stayed relatively unchanged. Over the years when the USGA comes knocking redesign comes with them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Wouldn't any club that has gotten the national acclaim that PV has and had almost immediately be more prone to protect its heritage? Whereas a typical club that has guests come out and say negative things might be more apt to make changes?

Jeff,

PV has more than adequate guest play.

Clubs rarely alter their courses based on comments by guests as opposed to the perceptions of the membership.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Here is the problem with the question:  Pine Valley is in no way your typical local club.  Is your question:  "If Pine Valley had only a typical local membership, would the course be altered?"

Or is your question, "if Pine Valley were a more typical golf couse, would it be altered"?

These are different questions....Because Pine Valley is NOT a typical golf course, I don't think any membership (local or national) would change it... It is a masterpiece and once so recognized, members or a "dictator" would be hesitant to change it...

I think your question is probably the former.  I think that, if the course itself were typical, it would have probably already been changed a great deal.

Bart,

Please reread my initial post, I was quite clear.

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The number of local members at Pine Valley is not at all minuscule (note the spelling) by any reasonable definition.

Really ?

Could you tell us the number of local members who live in Clementon ?
And, what percentage of the membership they make up ?

I think you'll find that my original statement was accurate, even if my spelling wasn't.[/color]

The course is 14 miles from City Hall, Philadelphia and is less than 25 miles from Merion GC, which as you know is west of Philadelphia.  It takes less than 1/2 hour to travel from the center of Philadelphia to Pine Valley. 

You must have a lot of speeding tickets.

It takes about that long just to get from the Exit on the NJ Turpike to the clubhouse.

I live about 15 miles from Manhattan, but, it can take me an hour and a half to get there.

I assume that when you travel from Philadelphia to PV that you still have to take a bridge over the Delaware River, and there aren't that many bridges crossing the Delaware.


Try to stay focused on the gist of the initial post before it turns into a Merion thread.

[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat: 
I guess you missed my point. 
My point was that the style of architecture at Pine Valley (and other courses) has had a lot to do with determining the nature of the membership, and thus the desire to preserve it as a difficult test. 

Tom Doak,

The same could be said about Hollywood, yet, the two courses took divergent paths.

I think that's an interesting comparison/study.

That's why the members joined it in the first place, because they appreciated a difficult test. 
If they didn't, Mr. Brown would not let them join.


I think the same could be said about Hollywood.

Looking at an old aerial, absent the dramatic topography, it looks more difficult than PV.

The bunkering is mind boggling.

Yet somehow, the golf course transitioned from its original intent, a difficult championship test, toward a member-spectrum friendly golf course, and with that transition came the eradication of many of the feaures, especially the bunkering.

I think those alterations were a product of democracy, where member imput had a voice, whereas JAB wouldn't tolerate suggestions regarding the golf course.

Democracy disfigured Hollywood, while a dictatorship preserved PV.

So, my original question remains, how would PV be different if it were a local club with a typical membership ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I know that in america the trend seems to be to live pretty much on a golf course (i don't honestly know why, it seems a little tacky to me), but for most people living in london, new york, philadelphia, or any other large city for that matter, many of the best local golf clubs can take at least half an hour or hour to get to.  


Then, by definition, they aren't local clubs, and neither is PV

And, PV is at least a second club for the majority of the membership.


As a brit who has visited PV on multiple occaisions (always while staying in Philly), the thought that PV could be considered as not a local philadelphia area course is quite amusing!

That's because you're not familiar with what a "local" club means.

How many of the members at PV ONLY belong to PV ?
Or, do most also belong to a "local" club very convenient to their home or business ?

I mean I know that the US has a reputation for their convenience culture, but...

And while PV undeniably has a sizable national membership, in my experience almost everyone I have met there falls within the (or at least my) definition of a local... ie. Lives or works within an hour or so drive.

Then you've only met a limited subset of members.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not hosting any major championships is another reason the course has stayed relatively unchanged. Over the years when the USGA comes knocking redesign comes with them.

Tom,

Added tee length has been incorporated due to the "distance" issue.

Normally, I don't have an issue with adding length for a limited segment of the membership or Tournament play, provided it doesn't impact the balance of the membership, and/or impede the original architectural intent.

While it could be considered a minimal impediment, the angle of attack from # 18 tee slightly compromises the original architectural intent

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe that one of the reasons that terrific contributors have left this site is the evolving tendency toward OT subjects and the process of diverting-deflecting-transitioning architectural subjects toward non-architectural subjects, miring the discussion in non-architectural related minutia.

This thread might be a good example of the latter.

A question ABOUT ARCHITECTURE was asked, and some of the responses are incredibly idiotic, focused on the length/time of the drive to the golf course, rather than on which architectural features might be altered and why, had the club's membership and culture replicated that of a typical local club.

If you morons can't understand that, get off the site, or at least, don't type words that confirm your stupidity

And, if you don't understand the question or premise, ASK for clarification.

Where are Tommy Naccarato and Gib when they're needed ?

End of rant

[Chip Gaskins]

So, my original question remains, how would PV be different if it were a local club with a typical membership ?[/b]

Your rant almost scared me off, but I did want to see the thread continue, so I will ask for a clarification of your question..

Define "typical membership"..... are we talking about the demographic of the typical local member OR are we talking about the structure of a typical local club.

If you talking about club structure then I think your Hollywood post summed it up.  Courses with benevolent dictators usually end up in the long term having the best golf course, PV, Oakmont, etc.. In this case democracy doesn't seem to work.

If you are talking about the demographic of the typical local member then I think members of "local" courses have a completely different expectation of their club versus what a typical PV member would have.  My assumption is the PV members know they have a world treasure and simply know better than to mess with it.  (caveat, hasn't Fazio worked on it a little recently?)