[Chris_Clouser]

Matt,

The 13th plays around the 600 yard mark from all the tees, except the insane marketing driven Purgatory tee.  I play from the blues or the whites when I am out there, so that never comes into my mind to step back on that tee.  But I get what you are saying.  From 150 in though the hole is really pretty nice with a great green.  It is just the first 450 that is pretty bland. 

[Dan_Callahan]

Dan:

My listing is not some sort of politcal document -- I don't just give away spots because of geographical necessity or political correctness. Keep in mind, since I'm from the northeast I've traveled to the area in question many times over and while there are a few candidates for consideration -- Wintonbury is one of them but in order for a course to make the top ten something else has to fall off.

The candidates from Minnesota that Jason mentioned previously are well known and have a big time following. New England golf is quite seasonal in nature and the public side has been slow to develop because of a short season and the proliferation of top tier private clubs.

Hey Matt,

I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying it is depressing. I wouldn't put any New England courses in a listing of top 10 publics for under $100 either. Wintonbury, while fun to play, doesn't come close to the courses you have listed. Public golf in the Northeast has come a long way over the last 10 years, but the best courses are brutally expensive and they pale in comparison to the quality of the privates.

[PCCraig]

Opps!

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

I'm beginning to think your views on public golf in Pennsylvania are incredibly off base.

Just which courses here have you played?

[Ken Moum]

Hey Matt,

I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying it is depressing. I wouldn't put any New England courses in a listing of top 10 publics for under $100 either. Wintonbury, while fun to play, doesn't come close to the courses you have listed. Public golf in the Northeast has come a long way over the last 10 years, but the best courses are brutally expensive and they pale in comparison to the quality of the privates.

Do you think that a list like this needs a geographic price compensation scale?

After all, a $100 course here in Kansas is on the exteme high end of green fees. But then you even before the bubble burst, you could shop for houses under $125,000 where I live and actually find something people would be willing to live in.

I'm sure that's not the case in the NE, or Calif.

By the way, did we some how forget Cottonwood Hills in Hutchinson in this list?

Ken

[Jim Thompson]

I can think of one that ought to get a nod, but America's guest hasn't been my guest yet

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

I'd like to see Purgatory get more ink but the ownership there should completely rethink the nature of what the 13th hole is about. Feasting the attributes of a hole that stretches like a runway at O'Hair isn't really design of the first order.

I still do like the course because there are a number of fun holes to play. The real shock for most people is after playing the first hole they think they are set to play some lackluster layout. When they arrive at the 2nd tee the ball game changes BIG TIME.

Indiana has a few more layouts of note as you are certainly aware. The sad reality is that many people here on GCA who set their golf travel plans likely go to the same places over and over again. Indiana is looked upon as just a place between X and Y. The reality is that the foundation of public golf there is more solid from a design standpoint than many might even realize.

Dan:

The sad part is that a few New England courses are starting to make a conscious effort to improve themselves. I returned just a few weeks ago from the newly renovated Mount Washington Resort course by Donald Ross. Brian Silva did a solid job there but the price point will likely not be at the $-100 figure I mentioned.

I like plenty of courses on the Cape but frankly they are low level designs for the most part -- save for a mere handful -- but even those can't really compete at the national level and what is coming from the other parts of the country.

New England is impacted greatly by a short season and little desire by golf conscious developers to create a product that can handle the serious down time when winter finally envelopes the region.

The private side in New England follows the same pattern seen in Pennsy and The Empire State. Those with the serious dough were not really interested in the masses playing -- they simply made sure they could feast on the quality private layouts produced by the top tier architects of their time.

kmoum:

Why the need for some sort of compensation scale? Don't know if you realize this but Rustic Canyon is in the LA area -- one of the more expensive public places to play golf in the USA.

I don't know what you know or don't know about New England but the public golf side of the equation there is quite thin and from those that are quality the price point is a bit overboard for what you get back.

If you checked the price points of the courses I listed they are all quite affordable even when held against the local market place they reside.

Since you mentioned Cottonwoods -- can you tell me if you see that layout being beyond Colbert Hills in terms of what it provides from an architectural side of things?

Justin:

Rustic Canyon is in the LA area.
Four Mile Ranch is just outside Colorado Springs.

It's incredibly demanding for an architect to deliver a quality layout when faced with limited budgets and for a course of high caliber to be on top of a major metro area would be even more demanding since the initial price point to play would have to be much higher to get back what's been spent. Check out the cost of the new Pound Ridge layout in Westchester County, NY that Pete Dye designed with his son.


Kyle:

My understanding of Pennsy public golf is extremely thorough and if a course has even received one iota / fraction of a mention I've been there to play it. I stand by what I said -- Pennsy public golf for years -- until the arrival of a few layouts in recent times -- was a disaster. You had to play the private side because that's where anything resembling quality was at.

Please knock yourself out and list for me any public course that you think can remotely sniff the tails of the top ten I mentioned. With all due respect, I'll be waiting a long time for that answer.

Moran deserves plenty of credit for taking on the most vexing of challenges with the construction of Morgan Hill. The final routing and shot diversity encountered there is miles beyond the bland farm-land in and back layouts that have made up the Pennsy portfolio of lame public courses.

Moran's subsequent follow-up work with Lederah proved to me he has evolved a good bit since the opening salvo of success with the likes of Hawk Pointe in Washington Township, NJ. Lederach is edgy and it encompasses so many of the unique classic golf tenets with contoured greens that mandate stragtegic thinking immediately at any tee box.

Kyle, if you think of a Pennsy public course beyond the ones I've mentioned that are also less thsan $100 to play and you think they can compete against the likes of Morgan Hill and Lederach please feel free to throw the names forward. I'll be happy to correct myself -- provided you do likewise when you finally grasp my original point that Pennsy public golf is so below the level of what you see from the private side of things.

[Kyle Harris]

I know you've never played Jeffersonville, the Donald Ross/McGovern muni in Norristown.

Paxon Hollow is, yard for yard, the most fun I've ever had on a golf course and it essentially the public version of Merion West.

Lederach and Morgan Hill, of course.

Now that it's public, Reading Country Club deserves mention in the list of public golf courses in PA worth playing.

My issue is not with your list or your selections, nor should you consider my additions for your list (that wasn't my point anyway), but that the general view of public golf in Pennsylvania may be more stereotype than absolute substance. I once shared your view.

I don't anymore.

[Joe Bausch]

I think Glen Mills (Bobby Weed) could easily be considered in the list.

[Bob Harris]

Just beat me to it.  Glen Mills is a better choice for the list than Lederach.  It opened in 2000, and the highest fee is $95 on weekend mornings, cart included.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Please -- c'mon, let's get serious OK.

My thinking on the subject of Penny public golf is not stereotyped -- it's based on my playing such a sheer array of courses stretching frm west to east to north to south in the Keystone State for well over 40 years.

You name how many courses -- a total of three -- and then shout from the roof tops I'm so misplaced on my initial thoughts.

Yes, I've played Reading County Club and it's a decent course but to somehow think it elevates itself to something of national consideration is way beyond a big time stretch. Even on a state level Reading is fairly ordinary even though it's now exclusively public.

Paxon Hollow is a quaint and sporty course to play. But, to somehow think it rises to the level of being in the same league with Morgan Hill and Lderach is beyond a reach on your part. I played it a few years back and it's OK for what it provides but to somehow think it is noteworthy on a state wide level is again a stretch. I don't doubt you and maybe others really like it. That's great -- but let's place that enthusiasm in some sort of context shall we?

I've not played Jeffersonville and will try to play it before the year concludes. However, even if the course is as good as you believe the issue is one of overall depth throughout the state. Be curious to know why Jeffersonville has not been rated among the top public courses in the state by Golfweek -- to name just one definitive source that doesn't equate difficulty or length as a prime design criteria.

That is the point you're missing. Pennsy golf has been and continues to be one of the USA"s best states for PRIVATE GOLF. Moran, more than any other architect I have seen, has tried to include designs for the public realm that are not formulaic and at the same time provide the kind of missing challenge and fun that for years has been only seen with the private side of the aisle. Morgan Hill and Lederach as a combo are certainly taking Pennsy public golf to a whole different level of respect and notice.

Kyle, my "substance" has come from over 40 years in playing golf in the Keystone State -- from the dreadful layouts that mostly occupy the Poconos to those which are mainly farmlands converted into non-descript public layouts. Progress has been extremely slow in coming and as I said from the get-go those with the money and connections made sure they had private golf to rival any courses anywhere. You can see that with the likes of Merion / East, Oakmont, Lancaster, Fox Chapel, etc, etc, etc.

The conclusions I reached are there for those willing to admit the past and see what the present is about now. There has been improvements but that improvement has only started within the time frame I mentioned in this thread's title.

We will likely agree to disagree -- so be it.


Bob / Joe:

If you believe Glen Mills is better from a strictly architectural standpoint then so be it. Lederach by Moran has it beat in so many ways IMHO.

Heck, I thought either of you would have mentioned Wyncote before Glen Mills.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

40 years? Just how old are you?!

Anyway, I think my point may be better suited to a separate thread. You're adding criteria that are a part of this thread that were not meant to be included in my own point.

[Patrick Kiser]

I was about to mention Darkhorse and Apache Stronghold as two that would have made it, but on both accounts ... conditions as I recall were pretty rough.  Interesting layouts on both with more challenging greens at Darkhorse, but in such sad shape when I visited that I just won't be returning.

I'd look into Keith Foster's Dark Horse in Auburn, CA as well.

VERY good layout, and quite the bargain with the economy the way it is right now.

Peak rates are $79.....including cart.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

I'm 51 years old and my dad used to take me to different places when I first started the game when I was 10 years old -- among those places were the Poconos to name just one location outside of Jersey.

Kyle, your own point was that somehow my understanding of Pennsy public golf is flawed or out of step with what you see. I responded to that in good faith and challenged you to come up with a counterpoint -- you did -- you based your viewpoint on three (3) particular courses. I opined that I didn't see much with Reading CC and with Paxon Hollow. I also mentioned that Jeffersonville was a layout I had not played but that I used Golfweek's state public ratings to show the course was not even listed. I don't doubt you may like all three of the courses you mentioned but I further stated that when you look much, much deeper at what the state has produced from the public side of the aisle - the awakening to really solid public golf options is now only starting to bloom and I frankly salute Moran for being a major catalyst in that ascension.

[Bob Harris]

Bob / Joe:

If you believe Glen Mills is better from a strictly architectural standpoint then so be it. Lederach by Moran has it beat in so many ways IMHO.

Heck, I thought either of you would have mentioned Wyncote before Glen Mills.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  I'm not a fan of Lederach.   I didn't mention Wyncote because it didn't meet your criterion of being built after 1998.

[Matt_Ward]

Bob:

You really like Glen Mills -- can you tell me what aspects make it more unique in your mind to Lederach? Also, how many rounds have you played at each?

Have you played any of the other candidates I listed?

Thanks ...

[Bob Harris]

Matt,

No, I haven't had the opportunity to play the others on your list. 

I never said that I like GM, I just prefer it to Lederach.  When it first opened, I played Glen Mills 3 or 4 times a year, but I haven't been back in a few years.  I played Lederach 3 times in the last 2 months and was there for the course rating.

I do think that the course has much potential and would be interested to know, after seeing how it plays after 2 years, if Kelly intends to make some modifications to the course.

[Matt_Ward]

Bob:

Specifically, what are "some modifications" in your mind ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt and Bob,

Re: Lederach changes

The former 9th hole is now the 18th. The green was expanded by about one third to create more pin positions. I think it was done without KBM's consent. It is still a very difficult green and created a lot of negative comments. The reason for the change in the original routing was to get the golfers closer to the clubhouse for F&B.

I don't know if any other changes are planned by Casper Golf or if KBM will be consulted.

[Bob Harris]

Matt,


From my perspective (my skill level and as a course rater) I have 4 issues that I would like to see addressed:

first green is too severe for a 450 yard hole

11th hole: the landing area

12th hole: at 654 yards, straight uphill and into the prevailing wind, the hole is hard enough.  Does it really need the 50 yard wide waste area that crosses the fairway at 425 yards?  If you have to layup, you're left with a blind third shot of 235 yards.

15th hole: the hole is a difficult 470 yard par 4.  Does it need a 10 foot deep bunker that extends the entire width of the green?

Just my opinion.

Bob

[Matt_Ward]

Bob:

I hear what you say -- but consider this -- the folks playing the back tees should handle the added demands that come from playing from such markers.

In the specific instances you mentioned -- the 1st hole is demanding. I don't doubt that. But if someone is going to the tips and can't really hit the ball beyond 250 yards then frankly they are wasting their time because they don't have enough game to handle that type of challenge. It's not the fault of the architect -- it's the fault of the player.

It would be no less the same that a person who can only handle bunny slopes would then make the big time leap to the double diamond hills and then after nearly killing themselves make the statement that the double diamond hills are completely ouf of place.

In regards to the 11th hole -- you simply stated "landing area." I don't know what you mean by that. I think there are several options for the player to decide upon when standing on the tee. If a player takes the conservative route to the far left they still have plenty of room to land the shot and get to the green in regulation. Those who opt for the more aggressive line of play get a much smaller landing area. Again, I would need to know more about your stated comments.

Let me address the 12th hole -- it's played from an extremely elevated tee to start with. The tee boxes at 654 yards are only for the highly skilled player. Not the wannabee players who don't bring game to the table. You mention the prevailing wind -- my answer is so what. There are other long holes I have played where wind can be in the players face from time to time. The cross bunker you mentioned is entirely fair game. If a player of sufficient skill level can't cross the 425 yard cross bunker then a simple suggestion is in order -- play the next tee boxes further up. No doubt those who can't fly the bunker in question will face a very demanding third. Nothing wrong with that in my mind. If you did the same thing at Baltusrol Lower's 17th hole -- 650 yards now -- the same thing would happen (minus the blind shot at Lederach).

If memory serves the 15th hole has a bunker that is not immediately next to the green. It does need to be carried but I'll say this again -- only players of sufficient skill level should be playing the hole at 469 yards. There are other tees at 445 and 396 yards respectively.

Bob, just my counter-opinion. I think you would admit that Lederach is not in the same form or substance of other Pennsy public courses. No doubt a number of people who have overdosed on the formulaic / junkfood layouts that dominate the landscape may see Lederach as being beyond what golf should be about. It would be akin to someone only eating McDonald's all their life and then finally placing some real beef in their mouth.

Steve:

Sad to hear about the changes -- I liked where the former 9th was located. The finishing hole was also good. As an FYI -- I even suggested that the original holes be played in a somewhat different fashion. My idea would be to play from the 9th tee and head to the 18th green and do the same in reverse with you starting on the 18th tee and finishing on the 9th green. Sort of like an TOC situation in Pennsy.

The 9th if it was altered to some significant way is clearly treading on what Moran did so well there. Quick question -- do you see the course being radically altered from what Moran originally intended?

[Matt_Ward]

Things got sidetrackled with the discussion of a few Pennsy public layouts but I can only hope there will be more sharing of info regarding affordable courses that sport unique and fun designs.

Too much of GCA is spent talking about the courses few will actually ever play. They are no doubt grand experiences but are akin to viewing a Playboy centerfold -- you can look but you'll never touch.

So much of golf design today is happening through the talented works of a number of different architects who have done some incredible things with shoestring budgets and sites that are often less than ideal.

I can only hope more info on this front will take place.

[Ken Moum]

kmoum:

Why the need for some sort of compensation scale? Don't know if you realize this but Rustic Canyon is in the LA area -- one of the more expensive public places to play golf in the USA.

I don't know what you know or don't know about New England but the public golf side of the equation there is quite thin and from those that are quality the price point is a bit overboard for what you get back.

If you checked the price points of the courses I listed they are all quite affordable even when held against the local market place they reside.

Fair enough. As you suggest, except for Fla. and Ariz.,  I know less than squat about golf prices outside the middle of the country.  That question was purely for my education.

Since you mentioned Cottonwoods -- can you tell me if you see that layout being beyond Colbert Hills in terms of what it provides from an architectural side of things?

Well, despite being only about 50 miles away, I have only played Colbert once. And at the time I hadn't started really paying much attention to architecture. And I hadn't seen much in the way of quality architecture either. That's changed a lot in the last 5 or 6 years.

I did play Cottonwood twice last fall, and had the fortune to see it in both south and north winds. From that and my memory of Colbert, I have a feeling that most of the GCA buffs would rank Cottonwood slightly higher.

I'm planninig to plan Colbert again in a couple of weeks, so I'll have a followup.

Ken

[Kyle Harris]

Does the 450 tee exist for the first hole at Lederach yet?

[Matt_Ward]

Ken:

Thanks -- I look forward to your follow-up comments on Colbert Hills.

As an FYI -- the price points will vary from one section to another but clearly there are superior courses that are not triple digit fees -- some of them are even closer to $50 than $100.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()