“We have ceded our recreation time to our kids.”

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom and Shivas,

There is great comedy at those games.  What I find particularly cute (in addition to the types of things you mentioned) is the glance over to the sidelines from my daughter after scoring a goal to make sure her parents saw it, and then the look of slight embarassment from her when we meet her glance and she goes back to running around on the field with her friends. 

Oh my, so right on, Tim.

The waving to parents while play is going on is darn cute also. We saw a lot of that last Saturday.  

And Phil, I stand corrected.

 

[Tim Taylor]

Tying up a few ends here...

Shivas, I was pretty certain you were pulling our leg. I mean, French cooking lessons! LOL. But you never know. Here in Northern Virginia, what you laid out would not necessarily be considered excessive.

My kids (D9, S7) have been exposed to golf and we enjoy the occasional few holes at my club. I don't push it on them and I don't get annoyed when my son takes 20 whacks to advance the ball 20 yards. When it stops being fun, we leave. Who knows if it will stick?

I was never a video gamer but my daughter and I have had a lot of fun on the Wii my mom got us last year (good to have a retired mom working part time at Wal Mart!). Bowling, boxing, tennis are great. Mario Cart is ridiculous fun and Guitar Hero rules. My son doesn't really have any interest in the Wii. Yet.

Daughter played lacrosse last spring. Her mom was a big shot lacrosse player in high school so she was sorta forced into it. She did OK, got better throughout the season and ended up having fun but I would not bet that it sticks. Son is in first year of soccer so I'm now seeing the cart wheeling, dandelion picking, and other things. It is very funny and awfully precious.

I played one year of football as a kid. Not tough or aggressive enough. Played baseball until 14 or so when it was obvious I had exhausted my talent. LOL. We had pick up games of all types as kids. Played all sorts of intramural sports in high school and college.

I try to have a balance with the kids. One sport and scouts seems to work. Leaves lots of time to just be a kid.

Tim

[Michael Powers]

here's a question--when i was a kid, i loved having my parents watching me during team sports, but thought that parents who followed their kids at golf tournaments were overbearing and in most cases a negative.  I would have been upset/angry if mine had come out to watch.

I always thought that golf was either a solitary acitivity or, in fourball, a one-partner event.  Parents and coaches were lookie-loos.

wonder why the difference in thinking.

And the parents who watch every moment of their son's football, soccer, baseball, and hockey games are somehow more involved in the sport?  The sad truth is that society has convinced most parents that they are bad parents if they drop their kids off and don't sit and watch their practice and games, which is ridiculous.

For 3 full seasons in high school me and a kid on my team played 1 and 2.  His father followed our group, home and away at each match.  The guy watched me play every shot in high school golf for three years.  And the guy would comment on shots played, give bad rulings, and generally be a nuisance.  My dad would watch us putt out on the last hole sometimes if he could make it, and I was better for it.

Now I run these junior clinics on Saturdays for Members, and EVERY parent stands 10 feet from the tee or practice green and watches the action, and this is at a private club.  Can someone help me understand what the benefit is to the kids and the parents?  It is senseless and a colossal waste of time.

[Carl Nichols]

When I was little, Saturday mornings and early afternoons were often spent at Fisher Meadows, the big mass of soccer fields in Avon.  My dad attended most of my games, and my mother probably attended every single one of them.  It was great to have them there.  Sometimes my dad would play golf early on Saturday morning--say 7 or 7:30--and make it for at least the second half of my soccer game.  And a lot of times, when he didn't play golf in the morning, we'd go home from the soccer game and I'd chnge and he and I would go play golf.  It was great.

What John Kavanaugh earlier point about how it isn't until kids are too old to be hanging out with their parents that they finally are able to play on weekend mornings is salient, I think.  Hop Meadow has been like that for as long as I can remember--children under 18 aren't allowed to play on weekends (regardless of ability or pace of play) until 1:30 or 2:00.  I think rules like that have a detrimental effect on the game to young kids.

When I'm a father (not for a good while), I'm hoping that my kid(s) will develop the same kind of passion for golf that I have.  That would be a nice solution to the "not enough time to play" problem.  But if not, I will try to do as my father did--balance my desire to play golf with my desire and duty as a father to support my children in their recreational interests.

It's certainly not my place to impugn any parenting philosophies with any kind of expertise.  For parents whose commitment to their children's pursuits is absolute and trumps the desire to play golf on the weekend, I have much respect.  But I also see the perspective of those who believe that it is important to leave kids to their own devices at times, to give them an idea of what it's like to be on their own.  Interesting discussion.

Tim:
I played many soccer games at those fields as the visiting team (Simsbury).  Great memories.

[Jason Topp]

you forgot cartwheels while on defense and the kid who was just goalie forgetting she's not goalie anymore and just picking up the ball when it's close to her defensive net.  I saw both last Saturday...priceless.

When I coached a girl's team at this age, we had a goalie get her hair stuck in the net every game!

[Tim Bert]

Kalen--

I believe games like Rock Band can be a good activity for developing basic coordination skills and all.  It's certainly better than filth like Grand Theft Auto, which has exactly ZERO redeeming value.  The idea of the family all playing the game together sounds delightful.  Have your kids expressed any interest in learning to play a conventional instrument?

I started learning to play alto saxophone during the summer after 4th grade, and I've stuck with it all the way through high school and now into my second year of college.  I believe that learning to read music and play an instrument can be great for kids' imaginations and dexterity and all that.  And I've always felt that playing good music--be it practicing by myself or being in a concert ensemble--is worlds more satisfying than getting a high score on Guitar Hero could ever be.

I absolutely don't mean to do anything like criticize someone's parenting philosophy.  I just don't get why these kids who get absurdly good at Guitar Hero don't just learn to play the guitar itself instead.

You obviously have not see the salient South Park episode.

http://www.southparkzone.com/episodes/1113/Guitar-Queer-o.html

"Real guitars are for old people."
Eric Cartman

Huck - Thanks for that.  I enjoy South Park and Guitar Hero, but somehow I had missed that one.  Good stuff!

Tim - I played the violin from 5th grade on up through high school, and I don't think it ever brought the same joy that playing Guitar Hero and Rock Band ever brought.  This from a guy whose parents could play probably 50% of the instruments in an orchestra on a combined basis and whose oldest sister grew up to be a band director.  I appreciate the value of learning to read music and all that good stuff, but if you think that Guitar Hero is about getting the highest score, then you are missing the point.  I'd rather be playing "One" by Metallica or "Cherub Rock" by Smashing Pumpkins on my fake guitar than any Baroque piece on the real violin.  To each his own!

PS - Guitar Hero may not teach you to read music and may not require the same imagination, but the dexterity required to play expert level songs on that game can pretty much match the dexterity required to play any real instrument. 

[Kalen Braley]

I've got about 10 songs left on expert level on guitar and then i'll have completed the game for that instrument.

Playing drums is toughest, my 10 yr old is waaayyy better than me on them.

[Richard Choi]

If you really like drumming on Rock Band, you should think about getting one of these...

http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/25/hands-and-feet-on-with-ions-drum-rocker-rock-band-premium-dru/

[Charlie Goerges]

From Chortle Cohort's "Compleat Guide to the Introduction of Proper Young Fellows to the Game of Golf":

". . . and if you do not have a manservant or valet capable of the task, you may seek to make the introduction of your son(s) to the Royal & Ancient game yourself. The first thing to remember is that the implements of the game are not shafted with hickory switches for nothing. There is no better motivator to a young man's swing than the rational fear of a mashie across the backside."

[Tim Gavrich]

I appreciate the value of learning to read music and all that good stuff, but if you think that Guitar Hero is about getting the highest score, then you are missing the point.  I'd rather be playing "One" by Metallica or "Cherub Rock" by Smashing Pumpkins on my fake guitar than any Baroque piece on the real violin.  To each his own!

PS - Guitar Hero may not teach you to read music and may not require the same imagination, but the dexterity required to play expert level songs on that game can pretty much match the dexterity required to play any real instrument. 

Tim--

I understand that the allure of Guitar Hero and its ilk is that it makes its players feel at least a teensy bit like Steven Tyler and Jimmy Page and all, but why not take the $100 for GH and buy an inexpensive guitar, learn the chords, and get an Aerosmith book and start teaching yourself to play the actual music?  Then you're not confined to the 30 or so songs in the game.  You can even make up your own music and be actually famous some day, rather than in the fantasy world of your PlayStation.

And I think that the John Coltranes, Miles Davises, Jimmy Pages, Jimi Hendrixes, and Eric Claptons of the world would disagree vigorously with your claim that beating GH on expert requires as much dexterity as "play[ing] any real instrument."  As someone who plays a real instrument (alto saxophone), I know I do.

In the end, which is a more useful pursuit: playing music, or pretending to play music?

[Tim Bert]

Tim,

I find it hard to believe that you never had any non-useful time as a child or as an adult.  I'm not trying to argue with you that playing fake instruments is more worthy.  It's fun.

Have you ever watched sports on TV?  That's not as useful as actually playing sports.  Have you ever watched a movie?  Why not go act in the local play instead?

The problem with your assertion is that it assumes kids can't do both.  I know some "real" guitar players that enjoy playing Guitar Hero with friends.  My nephew plays a classical instrument in the band, and he also enjoys Guitar Hero (and plays it quite well!)

I'll view Eric Clapton as an expert witness here when he chimes in first-person and also finishes Guitar Hero on expert so he can be considered a true expert instead of an old-fuddy-duddy that just says "video games must require less dexterity than the real thing."  How can one know if you haven't done both?  I've played a real instrument, and had pretty good dexterity with my fingers, but I can't even come close to finishing expert on Guitar Hero.

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,

I agree with your sentiment.  I have a friend who plays guitar, a real one, and he always says why waste your time with that game?  Simple answer cause its fun and you don't have to be expert.  And you get to play along with folks online, and hear the song in all its fullness.

Throw in the competitive nature of head-to-head, rock-offs, and its just way too much fun for an adult, and kids, and thats the key.

As for Guitar Hero III, I'm still struggling to get thru hard, have about 5 songs left.  Can't even imagine how tough it'll be on expert.

[Rick Shefchik]

Can't believe I've never played or even seen Rock Band, since I (infrequently) play in a rock band.

Can it possibly be as much fun as air-drumming to Bruce Springsteen's "Santa Claus Is Comin' to Town?"

[Jerry Kluger]

Okay, I am back to finish my ranting and raving, but please understand that I mean this in a tone as if we were sitting together and having a drink.  I think that Rock Band and other video games, as well as computers, etc., stink and are an easy way to entertain your kids.  By no means am I saying that I don't do it myself, but it still isn't good.  Sitting for hours playing video games or playing on a computer is no different than watching TV and they cannot be compared with walking 4 hours playing golf with your family or friends.  Golf teaches you so much more plus it is exercise. 

From what I've seen of nearly every kid is that they grow out of the team sports.  How many are still playing by the time they reach 6th grade, how about 9th grade, not many.  Let's say they are 10 years old and have soccer practice once or twice a week, and then one game a week - total 3 hours - maybe.  Same thing with baseball although the games can be longer but they usually have a time limit.  Yes, there is the exceptional kid but they are few and far between.  So your contribution is to drop the kid off at practice and then attend a game - I will match a round of golf against that anytime.

Huck: I read the article about joining a country club in GD this month and you have to see the benefit to that.  How much does it cost to join - say $40K in equity plus $600 per month - how much are you paying each time you play a quality public course.  Kids can't play in the morning on the weekends but where is it written that you have to - I enjoy golf in the afternoon just as much as golf in the morning, especially if I get one of the boys to play  - that may not be the case at a public course, but most private clubs keep up pace of play all day. I found in my area that taking the kids to play on the weekend at my local muni was $200 and an upscale public was $300 - and that's just for one round. It is none of my business how someone spends their money but sometimes there is another approach which might make sense.   

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck: I read the article about joining a country club in GD this month and you have to see the benefit to that.  How much does it cost to join - say $40K in equity plus $600 per month - how much are you paying each time you play a quality public course.  Kids can't play in the morning on the weekends but where is it written that you have to - I enjoy golf in the afternoon just as much as golf in the morning, especially if I get one of the boys to play  - that may not be the case at a public course, but most private clubs keep up pace of play all day. I found in my area that taking the kids to play on the weekend at my local muni was $200 and an upscale public was $300 - and that's just for one round. It is none of my business how someone spends their money but sometimes there is another approach which might make sense.   

Jerry:

I see the benefit, for sure.  I just don't agree that the cost is worth such.  That's a lot of money - way more than I have available, that's for sure - for something my kids aren't exactly dying to do.  13 year old daughter thinks golf is a dorky thing Dad does, and 10 year old son is so busy with other sports - which he will not want to give up, nor would I ever force him to give up as I see a lot of value in them - that he has little time for the game.

So for me, it's not very realistic.  For others it might be.

In any case your views about team sports completely leave out the valuable parts that Tim Pitner listed earlier... the only gain from such is certainly not just to achieve competitive success.  The gain is learning to work as a team, learning responsibility to others and yourself, getting some exercise, having fun, etc.  If it were all about achieving greatness, then I could see your point.  But that's the least of our intents or worries.

I value golf rounds, for sure.  I just don't see it being very realistic to make golf the be all and end all.  Oh it is value, for sure.  I'd love it if my kids got into it more.  But I also see great value in team sports.  You know, coaching is a great thing also.  I've done that for years too.

To each his own.

TH

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim,

I find it hard to believe that you never had any non-useful time as a child or as an adult.  I'm not trying to argue with you that playing fake instruments is more worthy.  It's fun.

Have you ever watched sports on TV?  That's not as useful as actually playing sports.  Have you ever watched a movie?  Why not go act in the local play instead?

The problem with your assertion is that it assumes kids can't do both.  I know some "real" guitar players that enjoy playing Guitar Hero with friends.  My nephew plays a classical instrument in the band, and he also enjoys Guitar Hero (and plays it quite well!)

I'll view Eric Clapton as an expert witness here when he chimes in first-person and also finishes Guitar Hero on expert so he can be considered a true expert instead of an old-fuddy-duddy that just says "video games must require less dexterity than the real thing."  How can one know if you haven't done both?  I've played a real instrument, and had pretty good dexterity with my fingers, but I can't even come close to finishing expert on Guitar Hero.

Tim--

I've probably overstated my case a little.  I'm not saying that Guitar Hero is evil and should never be enjoyed.  But I just don't understand why anyone would ever waste so many hours becoming so good at Guitar Hero when they could play a real instrument and make real music.

I understand and accept that kids can do both.  But I just don't feel all that confident that many of them will balance out 30 minutes of Guitar Hero with 90 minutes of real guitar practice.

I'm not against "non-useful time."  But I personally view the ability to play Guitar Hero songs on "Expert" as a mark of someone who has wasted a colossal amount of time.

And you're right; Eric Clapton probably wouldn't do very well at Guitar Hero because he'd much rather play "Layla" on his own guitar.  That's all the evidence I need for how ridiculous a pursuit getting very good at GH is.

--Tim