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Garland Bayley

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2009, 12:00:55 PM »

  This was my first thread and post. What has happend to me? It appears so sane.

  Anthony



That was before you took up cavorting with Kalen, and screaming obscenities at me as I practiced my stroke on 18 to prepare to bury him two down.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Gary Slatter

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2009, 12:15:07 PM »
The Castle Course outside St Andrews, as it was and should IMHO have remained.





I see no golf course and certainly no good site for a course in these photos.
and what did it look like before it was made into a potato farm?  on a personal note I played the Castle 5 or 6 times and my personal opinion is the second round was the most "fun" and I had to play the other rounds.  I would much prefer to play the Torrance for a golf test and Kittocks for the wonderful views.   One round I did manage to hit every green and shot par, only one four putt.  I agree with some one's comment about the 18th hole, very bad driving hole, although I feel the same about the 17th on the Old Course.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2009, 12:34:18 PM »
I also wasn't a huge fan of the drive at 18 Gary... Although not because it was necessarily a "bad" driving hole. In fact I thought it was quite deceptive and therefore quite good.

I just think there was a missed opportunity to use the cliffs a little better... Although I'm sure that was one of the first things the DMK team would have thought of... So it must have been down to sightlines or safety or environmental reasons... or in all likelihood all three...

Niall C

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2009, 02:32:46 PM »
I haven't played the couyrse so interested to hear the comments on here. From talking to Mick McShane they knew when they were building it that they were pushin the boundaries and that the course was one that people would either love or hate. This is the first thread I've read where there has been a number of positive comments.

Question for those that have played it, and based on an experience a pal of mine had playing the course in a howling gale which I imagine would be common on top of a cliff by the seaside, how practical are the greens considering the average winds likely to be experienced ? Did anyone experience there ball being swept away by the wind from a standing start ?

Niall

Kalen Braley

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2009, 03:33:13 PM »

  This was my first thread and post. What has happend to me? It appears so sane.

  Anthony



That was before you took up cavorting with Kalen, and screaming obscenities at me as I practiced my stroke on 18 to prepare to bury him two down.


Garland,

Very nice to see ur not a graceful winner!!   ;D

I don't recall Anthony doing anything of the sort.

Garland Bayley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2009, 03:38:55 PM »

  This was my first thread and post. What has happend to me? It appears so sane.

  Anthony



That was before you took up cavorting with Kalen, and screaming obscenities at me as I practiced my stroke on 18 to prepare to bury him two down.


Garland,

Very nice to see ur not a graceful winner!!   ;D

I don't recall Anthony doing anything of the sort.

You lack a recall is aggravated by the traumatic experience of the face licking he gave you after the match.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2009, 07:00:04 PM »
There was no touching of me....that was all you 2, back at the bed and breakfast!!  ;D

Brian Phillips

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2009, 12:18:44 AM »
I also wasn't a huge fan of the drive at 18 Gary... Although not because it was necessarily a "bad" driving hole. In fact I thought it was quite deceptive and therefore quite good.

I just think there was a missed opportunity to use the cliffs a little better... Although I'm sure that was one of the first things the DMK team would have thought of... So it must have been down to sightlines or safety or environmental reasons... or in all likelihood all three...

If I remember correctly, they were not allowed to go that close to that area as the landowner still has the rights to let his cattle graze in that area.  That is why there is a road over the 18th as well.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brian Phillips

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2009, 12:22:17 AM »
I haven't played the couyrse so interested to hear the comments on here. From talking to Mick McShane they knew when they were building it that they were pushin the boundaries and that the course was one that people would either love or hate. This is the first thread I've read where there has been a number of positive comments.

Question for those that have played it, and based on an experience a pal of mine had playing the course in a howling gale which I imagine would be common on top of a cliff by the seaside, how practical are the greens considering the average winds likely to be experienced ? Did anyone experience there ball being swept away by the wind from a standing start ?

Niall
Niall,

I have played it in a 4 club wind and a 2 club wind.  My business partner has also played it in a 4 club in the opposite direction to when I played it in a 4 club wind.  There were no problems with oscillation on the greens at all.  The greenkeeper there knows what he is doing and never really gets the speed of the greens over 8 on the stimpmeter.

It is a course that will gain in reputation over the years.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Niall C

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2009, 07:54:38 AM »
Thanks Brian, I did hear that was some chat about tempering the greens which I think would be a shame so soon. I think they should give the course some more time (at least until I've played it !) before making any significant changes.

Niall

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2009, 08:40:54 AM »

Jason, George & Gary

I feel strongly about selecting the site of a golf course. As for Kinsbarns, that is a slightly different story to The Castle.

A golf course in the challenge and enjoyment it offers is more than just the some of its parts. It is not just a question of we have the money (well once we did), we have the technology and we can do just about what we want to the land. That for me is no criteria for selecting the plot in the first place. I feel we need to be far more selective.

Golf was and is a links game that has migrated inland because of demand. The early designers trying to keep true to the original concept, which has slowly been eroded away. However IMHO that does not mean we should tinker with the game nor should we build courses that do not blend with the rest of the countryside. The game is golf and to play golf we should be playing the land, not dressing it up to be what we think it should be, a Disneyland out in the woods or wilderness just because we have the technology or because some want it and are willing to throw bucket of money at it. Let’s not forget it is a Golf Course we are after, for some that means Nature and natural, well in these modern times as close to natural as we can.

As for travelling, that is down to the individual, if you want to play on artificial courses that look out of place with its surrounding, that’s your choice and please do so. However, those of us who believe golf is an old game played on ‘land fit for purpose’ also have the right to our opinions. I see no need to overcomplicate the design or construction just because we can, I do not believe in paying through the nose to build a golf course and I certainly do not want to play on the golfing equivalent of Disneyland. I will say this that I am lucky that the climate offers a great mix of courses here in GB&I. I am and can indulge myself with a good choice of links courses. Nor do I mind travelling to them, be they 300-400 miles away as IMHO they are well worth the effort.

A moment perhaps to explain and to look at my game. Its one of walking or not using distance books, marker or electronic aids. It honest and simple golf which is about the individual challenge of playing a course without outside help in either getting to the ball or using a distance aid to confuse my own inbuilt or God given senses. It is I, the golfer against the course, my score, skill or entertainment being tested against myself, Nature or what the designers can throw at me – that is the game of golf. That is why you can play the same course time and time again, yet still looking forward to returning. So I prefer my courses to have some honesty in them, you may just be content with any course, well good for you. 

I suppose I view it in a similar manner to say cloning (of courses), of constantly diluting the original ideas of the game or course to a state along the lines of homeopathy, that very little of the original spirit or essence is left. Nevertheless, then we all have a choice and I intend while I can and am fortunate to have the courses, to pursue the game in the way it was taught to me.

I feel that the American Indians may understand my comments in that they have a feeling for the land, of not owning it but taking care of it for future generations. Are we taken care of the land when we strip it bear, then rebuild it with all its fake contours, mounds and pond/lakes and I presume its imported grass etc. What are you left with, the natural landscape, no as it has be forever changed, but you are playing the bulldozer course & not God’s - if you follow my drift.

For those who enjoy the Castle Course, I am pleased for you, but I still do not see a golf course built on land fit for purpose, just an overspill course to make money on the back of the name of St Andrews. A very poor reason to build a course there in the first place IMHO.

But then as I have said that is my opinion. 8)

Melvyn

PS As for what was there before, lets just say it did not portray the image we get today when we observe the modern Castle Course :'( :'( :'( :'(


Jeff Taylor

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2009, 10:18:11 AM »
"Are we taken care of the land when we strip it bear, then rebuild it with all its fake contours, mounds and pond/lakes and I presume its imported grass etc. What are you left with, the natural landscape, no as it has be forever changed, but you are playing the bulldozer course & not God’s - if you follow my drift."

I do follow your drift. Getting as close to "as natural as possible" is a worthy endeavor. However, man changes everything he touches. Taking a divot changes the land. Building up the front of the 18th green at TOC changes the land. Indians may be better stewards than others but that doesn't mean that they left the land as they found it. They did plant food you know.

We wrestle with the concept of naturalism every day. Golf is just one form of human expression. The beautiful town of St. Andrews is a fine example of what man can do with land under his control. It's certainly better than Cleveland. Regarding the Castle Course, what would be a better use for that land? Who gets to make that call and why? Can art be manufactured? Yes it can. Has it been created on a plot of land just outside of St. Andrews? I will find out on May 15th 2010. Can't wait to make my own judgment.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2009, 10:32:49 AM »
I have known even an ardent golfer stating that it was an outrage that a golf course should be constructed on wheat land. He did not appear to realize that there are hundreds of times as much land devoted to wheat as to golf, and that, moreover, wheat can be grown away from the big cities, whereas golf courses for the masses are of value only when they are in close proximity to large towns.

A good golf course is a great asset to a nation.

Those who harangue against land being diverted from agriculture and used for golf have little sense of proportion. Comparing the small amount of land utilized for golf and other playing fields with the large amount devoted to agriculture, we get infinitely more value out of the former than the latter. We all eat too much.


- The Spirit of St. Andrews, Alister MacKenzie

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2009, 12:30:04 PM »

Jeff

I am not 'That Man' who designed the 18th at TOC I am my own man. Nevertheless, does the 18th look out of place; are its contours in danger of eclipsing the natural surrounding land? If so, I have failed in getting my point across

Dónal

The question perhaps you should ask yourself, would the Alistair MacKenzie of The Spirit of St Andrews have built a course in the manner and style of todays The Castle Course or would that have been a course too far?

Melvyn

Jeff Taylor

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2009, 12:44:21 PM »
Melvyn,
Not suggesting that you are not your own man. That would mean that I haven't been reading your posts.
The 18th @ TOC does not necessarily look out of place even though the rest of the land in the amphitheater is pretty flat. I was just making the point that it is manufactured and kind of looks like it. Still fun to play though.
The Castle Course was not complete when I was there in 2008. The chocolate drops in the fairway did look bizarre. I kept thinking of the posts on this site when driving by the course. I will keep them in mind next spring. This is the long way around to say that manufactured can be good. Good shot values can be created by manipulating the landscape. I understand that you prefer otherwise.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2009, 01:01:29 PM »

Jeff

Thanks and I do hope you enjoy your round at the Castle next year. Just think of what could have been done with all that money, yet they build the course on the wrong site, but then that’s just my opinion

Have fun and enjoy

Melvyn.

PS I have never ever posted on this site before - are you saying someone else is using my name and causing trouble? ;)

Brian Phillips

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2009, 03:29:36 PM »
Dónal

The question perhaps you should ask yourself, would the Alistair MacKenzie of The Spirit of St Andrews have built a course in the manner and style of todays The Castle Course or would that have been a course too far?

Melvyn

I bet MacKenzie has had more greens softened than any other Architect in the history of GCA.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Scott Weersing

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2009, 04:30:09 PM »

Jeff

Thanks and I do hope you enjoy your round at the Castle next year. Just think of what could have been done with all that money, yet they build the course on the wrong site, but then that’s just my opinion

Have fun and enjoy

Melvyn.

PS I have never ever posted on this site before - are you saying someone else is using my name and causing trouble? ;)

Ok, I will take a chance.

Where else in the St. Andrews area should they have built the new course?

I would guess they could have built the new course down A91 towards Edenside.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2009, 06:33:27 PM »

Scott

I am not saying there is another suitable site for the 7th course for St Andrews and I am really wondering if a 7th is or was actually required for the St Andrews area.

I feel that the public money would have best been served by finding another site not within the St Andrews catchment area, but then The Links Trust would not have been financing it or been involved. It seems to me, just a guy who family comes from St Andrews that we are into over kill for the sake of the mighty Dollar or weak Pound. I do not think for a minute it has anything to do with golf. Money is the name of this course’s game hence it had to be seen as a St Andrews course.  Not the main reason why I want to see golf courses built.

It is important that when we build new courses, we do so on good sites; we give the course the change they needs from the very start. Problems in the recent past has seen courses being built as nearly an after thought, an add on for this or that development. The result is mediocre, uninspiring courses with some inevitably inheriting long distances between Greens & Tees. I feel we need to learn some lessons, to stop being overcomplicated, stop seeking the quick return but of course that depends upon your point of view and on the type of golf you play, ultimately IMHO pushing and questioning ones actual commitment to the game of golf.

Perhaps I am saying that it may be more prudent, not to mention wise for the local towns and councils to be more actively involved in the location and financing of the next generation of courses. This was how the game expanded in Scotland in the 19th Century, who is to say it is not the way forward once we resolve the current financial woes of the world. It is a long-term program on the financial returns but it could result in more than reasonable to good quality golf courses.

Melvyn


RSLivingston_III

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Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2009, 06:41:08 PM »
How much play do these other courses expect to get? Aren't most tourists there to notch their belts by playing TOC?
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Anthony Gray

Re: Castle Course St Andrews
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2009, 06:52:01 PM »
The Castle Course outside St Andrews, as it was and should IMHO have remained.





I see no golf course and certainly no good site for a course in these photos.
and what did it look like before it was made into a potato farm?  on a personal note I played the Castle 5 or 6 times and my personal opinion is the second round was the most "fun" and I had to play the other rounds.  I would much prefer to play the Torrance for a golf test and Kittocks for the wonderful views.   One round I did manage to hit every green and shot par, only one four putt.  I agree with some one's comment about the 18th hole, very bad driving hole, although I feel the same about the 17th on the Old Course.


  Gary,

  If you shot par and hit every green. You play a game I am unfamiiar with. We done. I guess xmass is a itte warmer this year.

  Anthony