Ballyneal vs Pacific Dunes

[Kalen Braley]

Adam,

It would seem to me that its just coinidence that the native at BN allows for recovery from just about anywhere as opposed to the native gorse, grasses, and cliffs that exist at PD.

Based on the comments on the Rock Creek thread it sounds like there are plenty of lost ball opportunities out there as well with grasses, rocky terrian, and water hazards....and RC clearly came after BN.

[Adam Clayman]

Kalen, You must of missed earlier mentions (not this thread) of the Larry Rogers irrigation system designed to minimize throw to the native.  Plus, Dave Hensley and his crew make sure the native is kept at reasonable playability because, afterall, sometimes it rains. These aspects are  paramount to the principles the club was founded on.

[Kalen Braley]

Adam,

I did miss that bit.  Because the native was so consistent thru out, no matter how far one gets off the fairway, which I did on a couple of occasions, I assumed the native was not only deprived of water, but also wasn't maintained in any way.  My hats off to the crew, because it certainly fooled me as it looked untouched.

[Tim Pitner]

But one thing no one has mentioned that I find obvious from the pictures is the gorse.

At BN one will rarely lose a ball, spend much time if any looking for one, and, always have a chance for recovery.

For those familiar with the mega resort, is that the case at PD?

Adam,

Yes, despite the gorse and a few cliffsides that come into play, you will rarely lose a ball at Pacific or spend too much time looking for one.  While I think Tom Doak is correct that the hazards at Pacific are more severe (for example, I can't think of anything at BN comparable to the bunker on PD #6), I find the rough at Ballyneal to be more difficult because of the zucca (which admittedly only comes into play on quite offline shots).  I don't think playability or the availability of recovery shots is what separates Pacific and Ballyneal.  I think it has more to do with the greens, the longer par 4s at BN, the different settings, climates and vegetation and the resort vs private status of the courses. 

[Ed Oden]

I like BN #9 better than most here.  It's probably because I have lots of success there.  My lifetime scoring average makes it the easiest par 4 on the course for me.  I attribute that to the driving strategy of teeing a driver low and swinging easy.  Teeing the ball low encourages a straight shot.  Where people get into trouble on 9 is by spraying the ball into the native, trying to hit a second driving club hard.

John, the 9th hole really grew on me during our visit.  The first time around, I didn't think it was among the better holes on the course.  It isn't as dramatic off the tee as most of the other holes and it is pretty easy to find the fairway.  But you only get a clean look at the green/flag if you position your drive properly in the narrow opening through the dunes.  Manage that and you have a real birdie opportunity.  Fail, however, and you are left with a blind approach and a potentially dicey par.  Plus, the punchbowl greensite is among the best on the course and the subject of one of my favorite pics.



Personally, I found the yucca scrub at Ballyneal to be just as penal and just as likely to lose a ball as the gorse at Pacific.  We played in very high winds at Ballyneal which brought the scrub into play more than I would expect under less trying conditions.  So maybe my perspective is colored somewhat.

Ed

[John Kirk]

Kalen,

Perhaps I initially overemphasized the lost balls at Rock Creek.  Sure, you lose a few here and there, but the course is very wide, with average fairway widths of 70-90 yards.  You have to hit a crappy shot to lose it.

Tree-lined parkland courses help keep balls in play.  That doesn't mean I like them better.  Let's just say that a by-product of the big sprawling course in a natural setting is a few more balls out of play.

[Norbert P]

 Ed, nice photo. I dig the surrounding Ballyneal forbs and grasses. Is that rosy grass Muhly? Anybody have any identifications on the rest of the scruff?

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean A:  that pic is #7 which is a GREAT GREAT golf hole.  Just oodles of fun in every conceivable way.  So great call there.  I also think you make a great point about these hole by hole comparisons... I really do think BN is greater than the sum of its parts, so to speak.  That is, the rhytym and flow and overall total round fun is just so great, it's not enough to think of 18 separate holes.

John K:

Regarding #9, I never was able to play it well - and it wasn't the tee shot - the issue was always the 2nd.  I never was able to get a tee shot to where I had a good view of the green - always seemed to end up on the near side of the right shoulder - so in the fairway, but blind.  And time after time I misjudged the wind or the angle or whatever.  I'd say to me the whole then is confounding!  It is a damn fine golf hole one way or the other, though.  Much to think about, much to execute.

TH

[Ed Oden]

Slag, my knowledge of plants is pretty much limited to beer ingredients.  So I'm afraid I can't help much.   Obviously, the yellow flowers are sunflowers (which we were told are unusually plentiful this year).  You can also see the yuccas sticking up everywhere, which I found to be particularly nasty plants straight from the bowels of hell.  Balls that come to rest around them often appear very playable.  But the stiff thin reeds of the yucca wrap around the shaft of any club that dares to pass too close to its evil grasp, producing a whiff immediately followed by a curse.  I don't know what the "rosy" grass is.  But I believe the color depends on the angle to the light.  If you notice the rosy hue is only in the pics that are looking back into the sunlight while the same grass appears more golden when the light is behind.  By the way, thanks for the compliments on the photos.

Ed

[Jim Franklin]

Huck -

I can't tell you how happy I am that you played Ballyneal. I knew you would like it and I know it is worth all of the honey-do points you will have to pay.

EDIT: Now we need to get you to Chambers Bay. Should be easier though .

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck -

I can't tell you how happy I am that you played Ballyneal. I knew you would like it and I know it is worth all of the honey-do points you will have to pay.

EDIT: Now we need to get you to Chambers Bay. Should be easier though .

Jim - you are oh so right on all of that.  CB is next on the radar... and yes, there are reasons from time to time to go to Tacoma....

 

[Kalen Braley]

At this point, perhaps its time to go to the old standby....

If you had 10 rounds to split, what would it look like.

I'd go 6 PD - 4 BN.

[Jim Franklin]

5-5, I loved them both.

[Jim Colton]

Not very insightful, but I'd probably go 5-5 as well.  In actuality, however, it's probably 7-5 BN over PD because I can still get 2 rounds in at BN on each of the travel days.

[JohnV]

You have to hit a crappy shot to lose it.

Thanks partner.

[Jeff Tang]

I have played both Pac Dunes and Ballyneal.  In my personal rankings I actually have them 1 and 2, respectively, so you can tell I love both courses.  I was thinking while reading this thread why I have them in this order and what I came up with partly is in regard to the par 4's. 

At BN holes 2, 6, 10, 17, and 18 can all play very long depending on the wind.  They tend to beat you up a bit and can be hard to get to in regulation with a strong enough wind.  At Pac Dunes there aren't really any long par 4's that I feel beat you up and I think overall this makes the course a bit more playable.  As mentioned in an earlier post maybe #7 and #13 into the wind, but I don't find those holes overly long.  Overall Pac Dunes, even from the back tees, isn't a long course and with the winds blowing hard I feel that you can still get at every hole out there and that makes it a lot of fun in all conditions.

On the flip side, however, the longer par 4's could be seen as a positive at BN because with holes 2, 17, and 18 running roughly the same direction and 6 and 10 running the other way you are pretty much guaranteed to get at least a couple of long par 4's at some point during the round making the course more challenging.  Likewise this would mean that the other two or three longer par 4 holes would be downwind.  I did find BN the more difficult of the two courses.

It's a tough call, but also throw in the Pacific Ocean and I've got to give the nod to PD.

[Sean_A]

Sean A:  that pic is #7 which is a GREAT GREAT golf hole.  Just oodles of fun in every conceivable way.  So great call there.  I also think you make a great point about these hole by hole comparisons... I really do think BN is greater than the sum of its parts, so to speak.  That is, the rhytym and flow and overall total round fun is just so great, it's not enough to think of 18 separate holes.
TH

AwsHuckster

What is interesting about the hole is the short grass short and long.  I assume the hole is played from the direction of the camera, but I am not 100% certain.  If so, that fairway backdrop (I assume a hole playing more or less perpindicular to the one in question) is awesome and a great visual enhancement that is rarely used. 

Why aren't more holes backed into fairways of other holes, but in a way which makes it plainly obvious rather than trying to hide the fact?  In fact, the last time I can recall seeing this was at Worplesdon's 3rd which flows into the fairway of #1.  I think the double use of the land for visuals acts a bit like a big mirror on a wall.  It creates an illusion of more space.

Ciao 

[Ed Oden]

AwsHuckster

What is interesting about the hole is the short grass short and long.  I assume the hole is played from the direction of the camera, but I am not 100% certain.  If so, that fairway backdrop (I assume a hole playing more or less perpindicular to the one in question) is awesome and a great visual enhancement that is rarely used. 

Why aren't more holes backed into fairways of other holes, but in a way which makes it plainly obvious rather than trying to hide the fact?  In fact, the last time I can recall seeing this was at Worplesdon's 3rd which flows into the fairway of #1.  I think the double use of the land for visuals acts a bit like a big mirror on a wall.  It creates an illusion of more space.

Ciao 

Sean, this is a very astute comment.  Here is a picture taken from the middle of the perpindicular 4th fairway directly behind the 7th green...


It is impossible to miss this as you are walking up the 4th fairway.  This concept really does build the anticipation of playing the hole.  And what I like even more about this particular hole is that as good as the view is from behind, it is better from the front (i.e., earlier picture I posted) and, arguably, even better from the tee.  Here is a closeup of the view from the tee through the gap between the fairway bunker and the dune offering a glimpse of the flag from the tee...


When you add it all up, the 7th at BN is a very special hole and probably my favorite on the course.

Ed
 

[Adam Clayman]

Sean, One of the key aspects of the openness beyond the green is the lack of a frame of reference. How may times have we all seen the opportunity for such effect only to have some hideous mounding placed, blocking views of terrain long?

In all my rounds here, I believe I have only been in the same place twice, once. Oddly enough they came in back to back rounds on missed tee shots into the wind that luckily ended up short of the left center bunker exactly 142 yards from the green center. The totally blind shot into the wind is a real puckerer. Contrast that to the great short 7th at Sand Hills where in 4 out of the 6 of my plays I've been in the exact same spot. Pin high right.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam:

Interestingly in my four rounds at BN, I ended up in the same place three out of four times on 7!  Right rough, about 120 in.  Those three times were played into the wind.  With no wind I got it over the bunker and had about 70 yards in.  The cool thing was - as at Sand Hills #7 - each time the shot into the green was very very fun.  In the end I think what Sand Hills #7 has going for it over BN #7 is the very realistic chance for even a medium hitter like me to reach the green.  See, in my now 13 times around Sand Hills, I betcha I've been pin high right most of the time too... but I've also been in the bunker left, and in two happy instances, actually found the green.  Not that this is any weakness at all on 7 BN - hell the green alone is enough to make it a fantastic hole, and likely carry the day in a comparison of these two holes - but I can't imagine reaching the green on 7 BN except from very front tees with a very favorable wind.  So each hole has its positives - and I see no negatives on either.

Do people routinely reach 7BN in a downwind?  And I mean normal people, not the shivas and other gorillas of the world....

[Adam Clayman]

Due to the massive turbo boost off the back side of the bunker the green is reachable even into a steady wind from the tips. There is no usual about that hole. I've seen quads taken from 40 yards in and 3's from the most precarious of spots.

[Tom Huckaby]

Due to the massive turbo boost off the back side of the bunker the green is reachable even into a steady wind from the tips. There is no usual about that hole. I've seen quads taken from 40 yards in and 3's from the most precarious of spots.

Wow, I can't imagine that.  My one shot not into the wind, I killed it over the left side of the bunker and still had 70 yards to the middle.  But I shall take your word for it....

In any case, that's the best summation yet - there is no usual on that hole!  And therein lies its greatest strength.  What a wonderful golf hole.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom has noted that Ballyneal could be better than Pacific Dunes. I think Pacific Dunes is a 10. My only visit to Ballyneal was during growin and after playing Sandhills. I had also played 20 plus rounds at Pac Dunes. Therefore it is difficult to make a fair comparison with that as a backdrop. I do feel that anytime you are playing courses that the designer feels is among his or her best work then it is a win win for the owners/members and those of us blessed to experience both. I thought I was finally going to Ballyneal the week of the Dem convention but politics and being a Dad  won out over golf that week. Hopefully next year.

[Ed Oden]

Do people routinely reach 7BN in a downwind?  And I mean normal people, not the shivas and other gorillas of the world....

Tom, the 7th at Ballyneal can definitely be reached downwind.  Granted the wind was VERY strong the first round we played, but I hit a 3 wood into the right greenside bunker from the back tee.  As I recall, the hole is marked at 385 from there, but I suspect that is calculated along the center line of the fairway and the direct line distance is much less.  Just a guess on my part, but it is probably about a 250 yard carry over the edge of the left dune to catch the downslope toward the green.  

Interstingly, both times we played the 7th at Sand Hills an equally strong wind was into us and across from right to left.  So there was no chance to hit the green.

Ed

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed:

Oh given a strong downwind I can see it.. and I trust Adam that it does happen... one would just have to aim very far left - likely left of the fairway bunker - and that's a very bold line to take. 

My sole and only point was that whereas BN7 has a larger variety of possibilities off the tee, I have to believe SH7 is much easier to reach, so the "getting it on the green" possibility at SH is much more likely.  SH7 is 293 from the tips.

But of course, as you say, wind determines everything.

TH