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Phil McDade

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2008, 10:55:45 PM »
Robert:

Tiger Woods has led the US in scoring exactly once in the five Ryder Cups he's played -- in 2004, at Oakland Hills, the biggest route in history by the Euros.

97: TW -- 1.5 pnts; Maggert -- 3 pnts.
99: TW -- 2 pnts; Sutton -- 3.5 pnts.
02: TW -- 2.5 pnts; Toms -- 3.5 pnts.
04: TW -- 2 pnts; DiMarco -- 2.5 pnts.
06: TW -- 3 pnts; Cink -- 2.5 pnts.

I'm not saying Tiger should be benched; I'm saying he shouldn't be chosen for the team.


Richard Boult

Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2008, 11:02:27 PM »
Interesting sub-team stats - Phil's team was the 'A' team - playing 11 matches in total, but only tallying 6 points... Furyk's team was the 'B' team, playing 9 matches, but tallying 7 points! Cink's team was the 'C' team, playing 8 matches, but only tallying 3.5 points.

1 Kim
.5 Mahan
0 Leonard
0 Mickelson
.5 Mickelson/Mahan
.5 Leonard/Mahan
0 Michelson/Kim
1 Michelson/Kim
1 Leonard/Mahan
.5 Michelson/Kim
1 Leonard/Mahan
-------------
6 pts - 6/11

1 Perry
1 Weekly
1 Holmes
1 Furyk
1 Weekly/Holmes
0 Furyk/Perry
1 Furyk/Perry
.5 Weekly/Holmes
.5 Furyk/Perry
-------------
7 pts - 7/9

0 Cink
0 Stricker
1 Curtis
1 Campbell
.5 Stricker/Curtis
0 Cink/Campbell
0 Stricker/Curtis
1 Cink/Campbell
-------------
3.5 pts - 3/8

=============
16.5 - 16.5/28

Richard Boult

Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2008, 11:04:04 PM »
I bet the sub-team captains got to help pick the "captain's picks" too...

TX Golf

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2008, 11:09:47 PM »
Phil,

My comment about Tiger was in reference to all those who have played in the last few Ryder Cups. Not including some of the guys that have made the team once, or maybe twice. Give me Tiger in the Ryder Cup for 12 years over DiMarco, Maggert, Cink, or Toms anyday. He has been by far the most consistent performer of the group (which still doesn't mean much). You have to give him credit for putting together at least a respectable record on these horrible teams.

Robert

Andy Troeger

Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2008, 11:18:24 PM »
Interesting strategy, I'm not too surprised as I used to play mental games with my players all the time when I was coaching in high school. It wasn't so much "games" as little strategy things that sometimes seemed to make a big difference.

For example, I had a girl who had been JV all year play great in practice a couple times before our conference tournament, so I played her at #5 (first off) in the event much to her great surprise. She shot her career low in the tournament, then matched it the next week. She led us off the rest of the year despite her obviously deserving to move up in the order. Our #4 spot was actually rotated between the two kids competing for the last spot.

I also had a girl win the city championship from the #5 spot because I had five kids that were all comparable in ability and she was best able to handle playing at the rear of the field playing with kids shooting 150. She probably was our second best player if I'd have had to put them in order that way. We had all our scores pretty close together, but she beat our my #1 kid by two shots. The #1 girl won the next year  ;)

There were other examples, but it was an important part of coaching to me. By convincing the girls that our strategy gave us an advantage it made them believe that we had a better chance to win than we actually did. They played with more confidence, and the results speak for themselves after that. It doesn't always work, but its better than nothing!

Will MacEwen

Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2008, 11:43:38 PM »
How do you not choose Tiger if he qualifies?

This has to be the high point of Steve Deumig's broadcasting career.

Phil McDade

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2008, 11:54:43 PM »
How do you not choose Tiger if he qualifies?


That is a problem, admittedly......




Rick Shefchik

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2008, 12:09:49 AM »
The other pros love Tiger. He is not a detriment to U.S. Ryder Cup teams. A 3-1-1 record in singles alone makes him an incredibly valuable teammate, even if you choose to bench him on Friday and Saturday - which no U.S. captain would do.

His absence this week might have added to the U.S. team's determination, but I'm sure they'll all welcome him back in 2010.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2008, 12:11:53 AM »
Andy,

When I played in high school I had great success in the format which you are discussing above. Midway through my sophomore year I went from the 5th player on the team to the best (it was a breakout year). However, the coach kept me in that 5th spot, playing against lesser competition and with less pressure. I ended up making it to the state championship playing as the 5th man. However, the first few matches of my Junior year I was put out as number one and it took me a while to adjust. It ended up being great after a few matches but I wouldn't have been ready for that change the year before. Keeping the expectations down is a good thing.

Robert

Phil McDade

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2008, 12:17:38 AM »
Phil,

My comment about Tiger was in reference to all those who have played in the last few Ryder Cups. Not including some of the guys that have made the team once, or maybe twice. Give me Tiger in the Ryder Cup for 12 years over DiMarco, Maggert, Cink, or Toms anyday. He has been by far the most consistent performer of the group (which still doesn't mean much). You have to give him credit for putting together at least a respectable record on these horrible teams.

Robert

Prior to this year's matches at Valhalla, Tiger and Mickelson had each played in 25 RC matches and both had won 11 points.

I'm not sure I'd call either the '97 or '99 U.S. Ryder Cup teams horrible. The '99 team was arguably one of the most talented the U.S. has put out in recent memory, with 10 majors won by seven members of the team at the time of the RC (plus Mickelson, Duval and Furyk, all of whom went on to win majors after the '99 RC). The '02 U.S. team had nine players who had won majors at the time of the RC that year. Those teams weren't horrible; they played (with the exception of Sunday in '99) badly.

The '04 and '06 U.S. Ryder Cup teams weren't nearly as talented as the Euro squads.


Phil McDade

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2008, 12:30:36 AM »
The other pros love Tiger. He is not a detriment to U.S. Ryder Cup teams. A 3-1-1 record in singles alone makes him an incredibly valuable teammate, even if you choose to bench him on Friday and Saturday - which no U.S. captain would do.

His absence this week might have added to the U.S. team's determination, but I'm sure they'll all welcome him back in 2010.

Rick:

Tiger's three singles victories all came against guys -- Coltart, Karlsson and Casey -- playing in their first RC singles match ever. One of those, Coltart, was benched for the entire event until singles play.

Tiger's pro colleagues may very well love him. Whether or not he's a detriment to the team -- and its chances of winning -- is debateable. I don't find it particularly ironic that U.S.'s first win since '99 in this event came with him on the sidelines.

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2008, 12:36:00 AM »
Phil,

I think I over generalized when I said that the teams were horrible. My thoughts were more along the lines that they played horrible. Phil has also played in an extra cup and has had a sit a few sessions (I don't know if that actually means anything). Another thing that you need to think about is Tiger is usually put out in the role of the anchor man or point man, usually having to face the premier players on the other side (that is an assumption as I haven't done all the research). Either way, he has never been able to play on a team that has gotten off to a quick start which allows them to gain momentum. Tiger obviously hasn't been great in the Ryder Cup, but he has average better than his other American compatriots. Would you really sit him on the bench if you were the Captain? A Woods/Kim pairing sounds pretty good in 2010 in every format. Lets also not forget that Mickelson went 3-0 in his first Ryder Cup, making the past five years even more pathetic. With that in mind, Anthony Kim was great this week but everyone thought the same about Phil back in 95 with regards to the Ryder Cup.

Robert

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2008, 02:00:18 AM »
So Azinger created team unity by splitting up the team into little sub-teams. Interesting.

Jim Nugent

Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2008, 05:10:36 AM »


The '04 and '06 U.S. Ryder Cup teams weren't nearly as talented as the Euro squads.



The US teams weren't as deep.  But they were top loaded.  In 2006, e.g., the world's top 3 ranked players were Americans.   Yet they only won a few points -- something like 3 out of 11 IIRC.  Europe's top 3 players did the opposite -- won 8 or so out of 11 -- which is why Europe trounced the U.S. both those years. 


TEPaul

Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2008, 06:02:05 AM »
My God---this thread shows why fans are fans. Sub-teams and some good old mentoring of the "Big guys" with their little "charges"??  ;)

Do you think Zinger also made Phil bunk with AnthonyK, Hunter and Justin and tuck them in at night so they could all tell neat little "personal meaning" stories before all four of them drifted off into Dreamland together?

Phil McDade

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2008, 09:39:09 AM »
Phil,

Another thing that you need to think about is Tiger is usually put out in the role of the anchor man or point man, usually having to face the premier players on the other side (that is an assumption as I haven't done all the research). Either way, he has never been able to play on a team that has gotten off to a quick start which allows them to gain momentum.

All RC pairings are done on a blind draw, so neither captain really knows who their players will be up against. They can make educated guesses, but they are still guesses.

In his five RC appearances, Tiger's record in the first-day Friday sessions is 3-7. If the US (prior to '08) has not been able to gain momentum early, his play is one reason why.

His teammates for those Friday sessions have been O'Meara, Lehman, Duval, Azinger, Calc, Mickelson and Furyk -- between them, winners of 10 majors. Not exactly Vaughn Taylor or Fred Funk.


Sean Leary

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2008, 10:40:05 AM »
I do think that having Tiger as a partner in team matches may cause players to play tight. The scene, the expectations, and then Tiger not playing particularly well all make it hard to be at your best. Just a thought.

And yes you have to play him all 5 matches, regardless.

Jim Colton

Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2008, 10:51:01 AM »
Having Tiger as one of Azinger's 'team captains' with 3 guys with personalities best suited for him would probably work wonders for his team record.  That Tiger/Phil pairing by Hal Sutton was doomed from the start.

In one of Tiger's single matches, he was going last (another boneheaded move) and his match with Jesper ended up being meaningless.  I think he was pretty much in control of that match but it ended in a draw.


Dan Kelly

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2008, 10:52:39 AM »
I was away most of the weekend. Missed everything till the singles -- which I watched at hyper-speed last night.

I had guessed that Azinger's Secret Strategy was (along with minimal rough) easy hole locations.

From what I could see, at hyper-speed, it seemed like hole after hole was in a relatively accessible spot. Am I wrong about that?

I think I saw more USA putts fall yesterday than I've seen in the previous several Ryder Cups combined.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Richard Choi

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2008, 10:52:44 AM »
I think it is amusing to see people put so much to so-called "strategy". These "psychological tests" are nothing but junk science. None of them have ever withstood proper testing to show that they actually work. they are about as valid as astrology.

Zinger could have said "I separated teams by their astrological signs, so that they all match", and there would be many today extolling the virtues of Astrology.

US won it because the captain had 4 weeks and was allowed to pick just before the matches began. Which allowed the hottest players to get involved. And they came through with bunch of birdies.

If US gets blown out again in 2 years even after following the same Zinger strategy everyone is going to forget about all this team breakdown mumbo jumbo.

They won because they played better, you don't really need to get any more complicated than that.


Tim Pitner

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2008, 11:56:32 AM »
To the victor goes the spoils, but Azinger seems to be taking a lot of the credit here.  I tend to think that Ryder Cup captains receive an unnecessary amount of blame and credit.  Apart from some really poor decisions, like Sutton pairing Woods and Mickelson when they clearly can't stand one another and James benching three rookies until Sunday and then playing them in consecutive matches, the captain's role is overrated, IMO. 

As an American who watches a fair amount of European golf and likes quite a few of the European players, I think I have some objectivity and here are a few observations: 

The American team was much stronger than at the K-Club, for instance.  With all due respect, Vaughn Taylor, Bret Wetterich and JJ Henry are not top U.S. players and they shouldn't have been on a Ryder Cup team.  This year's version was clearly stronger, even without Woods (who I still don't believe cares that much about the Ryder Cup so his absence could have been a good thing for the U.S.). 

The European team was weaker than in recent years.  Although he played okay, Oliver Wilson is the sort of player who popped up on European Ryder Cup teams of the more distant past; more recently, they've managed to get virtually all their top players onto the side.  Soren Hansen might fall into that category too, although I think he's the stronger of the two.  If Ian Poulter, for example, would have automatically qualified instead of Wilson, Faldo takes Clarke and their side is stronger. 

More specifically, the Europeans seemed to be searching for pairings in the team play, which is something they usually have nailed down.  Without Clarke and Donald, Westwood and Garcia were missing their fourball partners.  Casey and Howell (who played Ryder Cups and Walker Cups together) weren't a team this time.  Other than Rose and Poulter, the Europeans didn't really have any go-to teams.  Harrington-Karlsson didn't really click and Faldo seemed to be searching for ways to combine the likes of Stenson, Casey, Jimenez, Hansen and Wilson. 

There were other factors of course--Harrington, Westwood and Garcia collectively failed to win a match (which is staggering) and most of the Americans played well.  The final score is a bit deceiving.  If Hansen had halved his match with Holmes (and Hansen was 1 up with 4 to play), then the Westwood and Harrington matches would have been key and they might have swung the other way.  If Westwood and Harrington can't beat Curtis and Campbell in singles, though, the Europeans aren't going to win under virtually scenario. 

Interesting weekend of golf--you'd have to think the American win only makes the Ryder Cup more compelling. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2008, 12:21:00 PM »
I missed this....This was his actual secret strategy....  ;D

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3599811

After a weekend of inspired competition, a single indelible image remains from this 37th Ryder Cup: Thomas Brent "Boo" Weekley galloping down the first fairway Sunday at Valhalla Golf Club doing a "Happy Gilmore" dance, riding his driver between his legs and whipping it like a quarter horse.

It was completely preposterous. And it was totally, wonderfully Weekley.

What professional golfer does that? At the Ryder Cup? On Sunday at the Ryder Cup? Only one man could be so cluelessly, cleverly cavalier.

Boo-S-A! Boo-S-A! Boo-S-A!

"That's one of the greatest things I've ever seen in my life," American captain Paul Azinger said.

"I couldn't stop laughing," teammate Jim Furyk said.

Volumes have been written on the withering pressure of this event, particularly America's tense susceptibility to that pressure in recent years. If you asked around, one of the most common explanations for the United States' recent Ryder Cup futility was its inability to play loose and enjoy the moment.

And then along comes brother Boo, turning this cauldron of intensity into an episode of "Hee Haw." What started with that slapstick moment on the first hole ended on the 16th in an 8-under-par shellacking of Oliver Wilson that helped spur America to a resounding 16½-11½ Ryder Cup upset victory.

"I felt like I just had to do it to loosen it up a little bit," Weekley said. "... And it's just my nature to be a little goofy anyway."

David Lott

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2008, 01:41:26 PM »
The Tiger effect is simple. He intimidates everyone, including his playing partner in team matches. Even Furyk, a hard guy to intimidate, was affected.
David Lott

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2008, 04:01:17 PM »
I heard a very interesting theory this weekend with respect to Woods. A Scotsman offered it up: most on the PGA Tour like and/or respects Woods very much. The same cannot be said about Woods and while some may hide their true feelings about Woods, Woods does not hide his disdain/disrespect for those he does not care for.

If that is true, it could go a little ways in explaining why the Ryder Cup teams Woods has been part of have won only 1 Cup.

David:

I think you'r close to the reasoning -- some mine, some shared by others -- why this team succeeded and others with Tiger did not.

My own theory -- golf is a highly individualistic sport. None of these guys (leaving out for a minute the whole sponsorship angle) get a salary; they earn all their money. Earn not enough, and you're shipped to the minors. The only way to earn enough is to keep beating the same guys, week in and week out, for the better part of nine months. A think a lot of these guys tire of the grind -- not the pursuit of winning, for they are all competitive and want to win, but the nature of the Tour, and how it's set up, with the (largely) same cast of characters going after 1st, or 2nd, or a top 10, or making the cut, with only the venue changed.

By the same token, I think most athletes want to compete as a team -- they want to accomplish something together, as part of a shared mission, with a common goal. That's why so many of these guys compete so hard, and want to make, the Ryder Cup team. It's why they embrace the notion of competing together, as teammates (even when they play badly -- as in RC's of 02, 04, and 06). I think in some respects many of the veteran guys -- Furyk, Mickelson, Cink -- may even feel worse about being part of a lot of losing RC teams than losing any one particular major (OK. Mickelson at Winged Foot is an exception...).

That is, all but one guy. And that's Tiger. He's not just the best golfer on the planet, he makes the conversation about who's #1 sort of absurd. He doesn't just win, he beats his opponents into submission -- very deliberately, I'd argue. He may not win everything, or every major, but it's no shock that he's never lost a major in which he's led after three rounds. He's just wired differently than the rest of these guys.

So when it comes to Ryder Cup time, I think Tiger has a tough adjustment. He may like and respect his RC teammates, but in the long run, I'm not sure he views Anthony Kim as a guy who can help his team win the Ryder Cup, in the way that Mickelson might. In the long run (or taking the long view), all of his teammates are simply roadkill he has to dodge in order to accomplish what he was put on Earth to do, which is break Jack's majors record. And I think his teammates struggle to adjust to him -- he's the elephant in the room. (Some on this thread have said that, of course, no captain could ever sit down Tiger during a RC match. So far, none have. Why not? I think they are intimidated into playing him -- by Tiger's presence, by their own fear of the reaction it would engender, by the second-guessing that would ensue.)

Tiger's record in golf, to me, demonstrates that he can pretty much do whatever he wants to do -- win the Masters by 12 strokes at the age of 21? Win the US Open by 15 strokes at a diabolical Pebble Beach? Win four majors in a row? Win a US Open on one leg? Break Jack/Snead/whomever's records?

Oddly, his own record in the Ryder Cup shows his inability to will himself to similar accomplishments. I think he cares about the RC, likes playing it, enjoys his teammates and the camaraderie, and wishes the U.S. had won more than one RC that he played it. But in the end, I think he cares about it less than his own individual accomplishments.



George Pazin

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Re: Paul Azinger's Secret Strategy
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2008, 04:15:10 PM »
But in the end, I think he cares about it less than his own individual accomplishments.

And so would anyone else with Tiger's list of accomplishments...

Interesting analysis, anyway, even if I don't agree with it. :)

-----

Did anyone else note how Faldo employed a strategy much more like the last few (losing) US captains? Play everyone, mix up the pairings a bit, never really get into any rhythm? I always thought one of the strongest aspects of the Euro team in the past were the consistent team pairings, which fostered a real team atmosphere.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04