Reasonable green speed at The Creek

[ChipOat]

As with my recent round at Merion's West Course, I played The Creek yesterday for the first time in some years and was struck by how really good green complexes don't need to stimp more than about 8 in order to be challenging.  The greens were not even close to lightening fast (although they were firm), but they were still problematic unless you were underneath the hole.

Sidehill putts still broke 6+ feet, being above the hole was still scary, uphill putts required a good stroke even more than is now the norm and everything that the Golden Era architects intended is still operative.  No clown's noses, no windmills.

Had the greens not been firm, much of the original challenge would have been diluted - fortunately this was not the case.

Like Easthampton and Merion's West Course, the sane maintenance meld on the putting surfaces was a treat.

As much as I admire much of the changes made to Augusta National over the years, the speed at which they maintain their bent grass greens for The Masters has not, IMHO, been their best contribution to golf.
 

[Mike_Cirba]

Chip,

That's really wonderful to hear.

I also played Merion West earlier this year and the speeds were absolutely perfect.    Still a great challenge, but confident enough in the ability and architecture of the golf course to not need a shaved down hairpiece.

Perhaps if more classic courses opted out of the Stimp Arms Race, it might take off as a new trend.   Instead of flattening greens on classic courses, we'd simply play them at the fun and interesting pace they were designed for.   

On modern courses, one of the great things about Lederach the couple of times I've played there is that they don't keep the greens at blazing speeds;   Instead, they let the contours and wild elevation changes provide the fun.

Who the hell want's to just breathe on a dead straight 20 foot putt?   Is that fun or interesting??

[TEPaul]

Chip:

Glad to hear you appreciated The Creek's greens.

However, it's probably never a good idea to throw around a stimpmeter number, either high or low. I would very much doubt The Creek's greens would be stimping at 8 on a Saturday at this time of the year with the weather we've had in the Northeast. For those greens to play as you described them in your round they were probably between 9-10. Once greens like some of those ones get into the 10-11 differential and closer to 11 things can get a little dicey depending where you are on some of those green to some pin positions. The greens that get dicey first at those speeds and above are #1, #2, #4, #9, #14!!, #15, #16, #18.

We had greens running between 11-11 1/2 at GMGC for the AJDP tournament Friday and Saturday. I thought they were a bit too fast but all the competitors seemed to really appreciate them at that speed.

At that speed there were about a half dozen greens where if you were in the wrong place on those greens to particular pins there was no way at all one could stop the ball around the hole and on a few of them there was almost no way the ball would not go off the green.

The tournament committee understood that going into the setup and pin location choices and felt it was strategically acceptable.

My observation is that a speed like that on some greens like those it's not really the putting that's the toughest part, it's the chipping to pins like that with speeds like that. Players at first think they've hit a good chip but invariably with anything that's remotely downhill or sidehill the ball just keeps going way farther then they expect.

The only thing I can see with speeds like that on those kinds of greens is there are places where one can get far more creative than if those greens were say 9-10.

[Robert Emmons]

I thought they had a full hard aeration and verticutting the first week of the month just after labor day? Many greens on the north shore of L I are still stimping at 8 - 10 for another weeek or two due to this....RHE

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

Increased speeds seem to lead to eradication of contour and slope.

I think there's a happy medium.

I prefer dramatic contour and slope to super fast flatter greens.

I like TEPaul's methodology of determining the maximum speed on the most severely contoured/sloped green and applying it to all other greens.

When the great courses in America, like Winged Foot and Merion, begin disfiguring their greens to accomodate speed, you know the emphasis on speed has been taken to and beyond the extreme.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

All 18 of the Merion East greens remain unchanged.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

All 18 of the Merion East greens remain unchanged.

Wayno,

Are you stating that there wasn't/isn't a proposal/plan that would result in the  altering/softening of them ?

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

I do not feel it is appropriate to discuss private matters in any public forum.  So I am not stating anything more than what I stated previously, that is all 18 greens remain unchanged.

[Mike_Cirba]

May it be so today, tomorrow, and forevermore.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I do not feel it is appropriate to discuss private matters in any public forum.  So I am not stating anything more than what I stated previously, that is all 18 greens remain unchanged.

We're aware of that, but, like Winged Foot the suggestion/proposal has been made to alter/flatten some of the greens.

Only a date that the work might begin remains in question.

[Bryce Mueller]

played the creek today, greens were terrific. Played with a member who briefly lamented that they weren't a little quicker but they gave me (+handicap, just finished my eligibility at duke this past spring fits...) I kept telling him how lucky everybody is up north to have these contoured greens, as they have DISAPPEARED in general down south...

[SPDB]

Pat,

All 18 of the Merion East greens remain unchanged.

Unchanged from when?