[Patrick_Mucci]

Or is it seasonal ?

Valhalla's greens seem like dart boards.

Is this attributable to maintainance practices and the desire to produce low scoring ?

Or, the season and/or Mother Nature ?

[Andy Troeger]

Didn't the remnants of Hurricane Ike just pass through there a week ago? That could explain it, they might have gotten 6-8 inches of rain as other areas did.

[Mike McGuire]

In SE Wisconsin virtually all the private courses are very soft. It did not rain for 3 weeks and tee shots are backing up in the fairway.

98 % of golfers in our area do not understand or have never experienced firm and fast. The more lush and green the course the better its perceived condition. The supers are giving people what they want.

I don't see it changing. 

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Notwithstanding weather conditions -- most supers go with the wet approach which produces lush conditions because most golfers link green grass and lushness to being proper for solid golf conditions.

Supers also realize that taking a course to an edge where its firm and fast on a steady basis is a sure fire recipe for having plenty of brown spots and hard turf that one can feel when walking on it. Supers believe that keeping courses soft -- while not a great idea from an architectural perspective, is a very good way in keeping one's job.

Self interest is clearly a factor and combine that with the ignorance of much of the golfing public and you have two big reasons for why courses can be maintained with lush to the max conditoins.

[John Moore II]

Yes, I think golf courses in general are getting softer, but its likely the conditions are Valhalla are a combination of the course being flooded by Ike and a desire to set the course up somewhat forgiving and receptive to scoring. The scoring leads to more birdies, roars from the crowd, etc. The US needs all the advantages it can get, and I think they want to get the crowd in the match as much as possible.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played the Federal Club outside of Richmond VA this summer.  They have Declaration Bent grass.  I spoke with the super who talked about his bout with keeping the course fast and firm and keep the grass alive.  He said that he went three days with minimal water and the grass was so stressed that he was afraid it would die. 

I wonder if all the courses that have bent in the fairways have difficulty keeping the course running fast.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

   I don't think general statements can be made. I have had no rain in the last 10 days and I can't get my greens to dry out this time of year. Just to be clear, I am not watering.  It's a combination of shorter days, less direct sunlight and growth regulation of the grass that slows the transpiration.  So while my greens are running 10'6" - 12" depending on my daily prep they are still very receptive and ball marks are deep. Take the good with the bad I guess.

   I don't see that many golf courses that are over watered anymore. Most Superintendents understand the benefits of a dry course if they can have it.  We can't controll everything but we can controll the irrigation system.  Just my very humble opinion.

[Adam Clayman]

Pat:

Notwithstanding weather conditions -- most supers go with the wet approach which produces lush conditions because most golfers link green grass and lushness to being proper for solid golf conditions.

Supers also realize that taking a course to an edge where its firm and fast on a steady basis is a sure fire recipe for having plenty of brown spots and hard turf that one can feel when walking on it. Supers believe that keeping courses soft -- while not a great idea from an architectural perspective, is a very good way in keeping one's job.

Self interest is clearly a factor and combine that with the ignorance of much of the golfing public and you have two big reasons for why courses can be maintained with lush to the max conditoins.

What really boggles the mind is when you play a course that while green, is still firm. Clearly there are ways to achieve a happy medium.
Why aren't those more prevalent?

[Matt Kardash]

Pat, on another thread you seemed to assume I was crazy when I said almost all greens were super soft and that is why low rough has no effect. Maybe I won't convince you of the rough situation, but at least you see that greens are like dartboards!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, on another thread you seemed to assume I was crazy when I said almost all greens were super soft and that is why low rough has no effect.


That's not true.
I didn't assume you were crazy, I definitely thought you were crazy for stating that golfers don't care if they're in the rough, that they're just happy to be within the tree line.

My understanding and analysis of your mental state had nothing to do with your assessment of the greens.

Maybe I won't convince you of the rough situation, but at least you see that greens are like dartboards!

I've noticed that trend on TV and elsewhere for some time.

[JESII]

Pat,

When the fairways bounce and roll like these and the greens are like dartboards, you've got your answer...birdies must be the goal.


Adam,

Firm & Fast and green is very labor intensive, hence not so many clubs are able to do it...plain and simple, brown should be more widely accepted, even on TV.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

I'd like to know what clubs are F&F and GREEN

And, if it's a temporary or permanent circumstance.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, I suppose thats true on clay based soils. But I never knew it could be a greater expense save for syringing. Could you elaborate on what else costs more?

Pat. A recent trip to Omaha CC witnessed the typical green look of an over-watered CC course, yet the bounces were presented. Both SH and BN can play firm when green, a total function of the sand base. Crystal Downs and Kingsley club both have that green sheen and play firm without any brown.  At BN, we allow the turf to go dormant, but sometimes it rains and within a very short time the grass is green again. Without additional rains, the course plays refreshingly firm as soon as it's green again. As an aside, one of the great mind screws is just after a rain, before the chlorophyll returns and the course is brown and semi-soft. Adaptation under those conditions requires real trust.

  I'd throw Wild Horse in there too because Josh does a top notch job.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

I think windy sites, such as SH and probably Wild Horse have an advantage in that area.

Wind can dry a course and allow for F&F while retaining a fairly green appearance.

[Mike McGuire]

I can attest to Sand Hills playing F&F and green.

We were there late August and told the prairie was abnormally green this time of year due to rainfall. The course was green but VERY firm.

[Cliff Hamm]

Played Beechtree a little over a week ago.  There were mushrooms in the fairways!  Not the supers fault as it had gotten quite a bit of rain.

[JESII]

Sully, I suppose thats true on clay based soils. But I never knew it could be a greater expense save for syringing. Could you elaborate on what else costs more?

Adam,

Syringing is really all I had in mind. Not just pressing a button and letting the sprinkler heads do a rotation, but real syringing by the higher level guys on the staff. My understanding is that this attention to detail has a significant impact on expense as opposed to sacrificing a small percentage of turf and accepting brown grass.

[Mike_Cirba]

I had mentioned a similar thing on a thread I started a few weeks ago after a trip to northern Michigan.

There was nary a drop of rain for almost the entire week I was there, yet most of the courses offered ball marks not only on the greens, but on the fairways.

Not to pick on Michigan, I ran into the same thing in the past two weeks in NY as well as PA.

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