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Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rolling Green - Thoughts
« on: June 11, 2002, 08:37:30 AM »
Had the opportunity to play Rolling Green in Springfield, Pa. yesterday (6/10) for the first time since 1978.
What a magnificent experience.  I know this course is on TEPaul's list of the best in the Philadelphia area and I was suitably impressed.
Flynn's (I believe) use of the topography, elevations, valley's and small streams is stunning.  Greens were in just amazing condition, rolling true, plenty of subtleties and yesterday were very fast.
The course is challenging, demading at times and a lot of fun.  
Superintendent has the course in great condition.  There are not enough superlatives available to complement he and his staff on a job well done.
Anyone who hasn't played here should not miss the chance to do so should it arise.
Long Live Rolling Green.
Best to all
Dave Miller
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2002, 08:57:12 AM »
Dave, you couldn't have had better timing, as I just played Rolling Green this past weekend, so it's certainly fresh in my mind.

I echo the thoughts.  Wonderful layout and nearly optimal use of a very hilly site.

I haven't played many of the best in the country/world, but RG has one of the best sets of par 3's (5 total) I've ever played.  2 shortish but treacherous, one medium with false front green, and two long, one draw, one fade.  #14 is all world.

Some ardent members are trying to restore original Flynn design features that were taken out through the years.  Restoring high right fairway above #7 green would be fun shot to play.

Only complaint was 8th hole.  Stream cuts across hole in driving zone, making layup shots long and extremely uphill.  Back in the day, perhaps no one could clear creek, unless tees were further up.  Wouldn't surprise me if it was short par 5 in the past with gambling tee shot.

#9 is 614, uphill all the way.

12-16 is best stretch of holes, though 1-6 is not far behind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2002, 11:19:49 AM »
Alright Miller, enough! Winged Foot last week, Rolling Green yesterday, you are the incumbent VP at the River and the committees are running amock, now get your ass back here and stop this who's who tour of America's finest golf courses! Geezus ain't Aronomink,The River,Farmington, and Admiral Cove enough? Do you have to be Americas guest too?I'll meet you in the Mens locker lounge Friday afternoon for a couple of Sank U Bevy Mushes. ::) ;D :P

I'm JEALOUS!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2002, 12:17:46 PM »
It is always nice to see people enjoy RG.I cannot tell you how many times i play it in a year(my boss or wife may get on this site),but as a member i am never  bored.What makes a course playable over and over? These posts and other comments convince me  that "variety" is the key ingredient.My admiration for Flynn grows with each round i play.I have complaints,but they are of work done in the 70's to make the course harder.
Two holes make my point about "variety" and how it needs to be preserved.The #7 hole is a  short par 5 .The tee shot is from  an elevated tee,so it plays even shorter.The shot to the green must negotiate a hill that slopes right down to front of the green.A well struck shot can run on from 30-40yds.In the 70's evergreen trees were placed short and right of green and just in rough off fairway to "punish" a missed shot.The reason i hear is "the hole is too easy".But these people miss the fact  that#8 and#9 are very hard.Flynn showed his genius for "variety".It is a perfect place for a fun hole.The #12 hole is 300 yd.par four,slight dogleg right with elevated green and nicely sloped green.There are traps on both sides  of fairway to "sphincterize" the drive.In the 70's or somewhat later trees were planted "to protect the dogleg".The result is that you cannot see green from tee anymore,the short hitters have no shot to the green from 140yds.and the longhitters are "dead" if they miss right.Again it is important to know that #13,#14,#15 are our "amen corner".Flynn knew what he was doing when he routed this way.I am reminded of the recent discussion on this site that paraphrased a noted designer that the classic architects were constrained by technology from making 18 "great" holes.When you have a chance to play a course that is imaginatively routed with variety you do not want anything else as a steady diet.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2002, 09:08:22 AM »
Mayday:  
The variety at Rolling Green is as good as it gets.  The twelth hole - 323 yds and not a par in my group.  One of the fools I was playing with made an inane comment on the tee about how could such a short ever challenge anyone.  Guess What?  He found out with a smooth double bogey. He was just your basic 8 hdcp. learning the hard way not to disrespect RG.
Cheers,
Dave  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

archie

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2002, 06:21:18 PM »
;)

Rolling Green has long been one of my favorite courses in Philadelphia, along with Philadelphia Cricket. Both are excellent tests of golf. I have copies of the original Flynn plans for the golf course at Rolling Green, and the construction drawings are detailed but simple. Tim DeBaufre gave them to me when we were building Twisted Dune, knowing my affinity for looking at the like.

The golf course is fun but the greens can be very difficult when up to modern speeds. Numbers' two and four come immediately to mind as nasty when slick. I vividly remember putting it off the fourth green in a Philly Qualifier and having a 80 yard fourth shot back up the hill. pretty scary!!!

Flynn is especially adept at mixing the hard holes on the golf course with a few breathers, as is the case here.This is one of the greatest qualities of great architecture,as his courses really flow.

I consider the greens at Rolling Greeen to be the most difficult of the Flynn courses, what do you all think?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2002, 11:25:03 PM »
Rolling Green is a real strong course! Many of the good players around here have considered it in the top five hardest courses in the district for a long time.

If the greens get fast it can be downright scary but there are a number of courses around here with greens sort of like that!

You hit the green on #4 and then had an 80 yard pitch, Archie?? Nice birdie putt!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2002, 08:00:51 AM »
First of all,it is worth it to close the course to regrass with bent and to eradicate poa annua at first sight.We can now see every little ridge in the greens.Secondly,the most famous holes where one gets the putt then 50 yd.pitch are #8 and#15.To tell a story---in our pros'annual tournament a few years ago(which only single digit hdcpers. play)the first day was better ball.One guy was sitting 6 at bottom hill on #8.He picked up because his partner was on in two.His partner made 15!!!We only do this to ourselves.In member -member alternate shot can get close to 20 on #15.It is true that #12 has the most birdie and double combo.I guess i find it hard to rank courses,so i can only say that a course is enjoyable or not.I make it a point to play Stone Harbor once a year to set my standard for punishment.
This concept of "variety" seems important to me.I guess that is why i like Cricket and glen mills
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2002, 08:36:47 AM »
Mayday;

So many of the older courses in the area have poa mixed into them.  Was the decision to try to try to take them  to all bent based on the poa disease so prevalent last year?  I know that the ice storms about 8 years or so ago also did a lot of damage to greens with lots of poa.  

From what you mentioned, the results sound encouraging!  What steps are they taking to prevent poa from creeping back in?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2002, 08:52:52 AM »
Mike C-the real problem was antracnose(sp).Merion ,Aronimink,Philly Country,and now Gulph Mills and White Manor have all gone this route.We are actually digging the new poa out by roots and puting in seed right away.It seems that just south of philly is bad place for this problem.We had serious "denial" problem for a couple years.From what i understand there are ways to handle poa to reduce impact of anthracnose but we chose "radical "route.Much has been said about  how Huntingdon Valley has been able to handle this through "hard and fast"Members have commented that the greens break less.I can only speculate that bent has less resistance than poa.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2002, 08:59:44 AM »
mayday,

Thanks for the explanation.  I wasn't sure I could spell it either, so I just called it "the poa disease". ;)  

Glad to hear that the "radical surgery" went so well at Rolling Green, and that the bent greens have come in well.  

I haven't played RG, but it seems to me that many of the old Flynn courses could be improved even further through better tree management.  How would you describe the tree situation at Rolling Green?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2002, 09:23:36 AM »
Regrassing of old poa annua greens to bent is not really to be considered "radical surgery", in my opinion, not when you consider the potential alternatives.

It's to be considered more like an insurance policy for the forseeable future (hopefully five to ten years) to stay out of the firing-line of anthracnose! As far as we can all tell anthracnose primarily hits poa annua maybe even exclusively (although some evidence at Bent Creek is making us wonder)!

The idea is you can keep poa out for 5-10 years with a good management program--although you sure can't keep it out forever.

We weren't going to regrass our greens in our restoration program which includes green expansions but when we got hit with anthracnose last year we included regrassing (will be done this year) in our restoration program.

Our super convinced us to regrass, thank god! He had to fight off anthracnose last year and threw everything at it including the kitchen sink and he pulled off one helluva remediation. But it left his crew worn out and it cost! He then said is this the type of dice roll we want to go through every year and certainly with the risk of having our greens completely wiped out as happened to Rolling Green or do we want to try to get years ahead of this problem? Smart call on his part and I'm glad we took his advice!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2002, 09:26:08 AM »
A few trees could stand to come out, such as the inside of 2,12,13,15, and 18, and the outside (above, right of the green) on #7.  I'm sure mayday can be more specific.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2002, 09:28:09 AM »
Tom,

What's the story with Bent Creek?  

When I played there last year, they had perhaps the most pure bent grass greens I've ever seen!  Did they get infected with anthracnose??  If so, that would seem to fly in the face of all conventional wisdom.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2002, 09:32:11 AM »
TREES? Aerials show that in 1926 we cut out 3 holes(14,15.16) from original trees.Two holes were partial cuts(13 and18).It appears that Flynn planted no trees.In the early 30's substantial trees were planted.These trees and the originals are mostly out of play.(I think 40 yds.from middle of fairway on both sides is out of play).From something i read Flynn advocated trees as background,separate holes,provide shade.The variety of the trees planted in 30's is wonderful.In the 80's we trimmed up these so one can now take a full shot out usually.We needed to cut many to provide air and sunlight to the new bentgrass greens.I cannot find whether Flynn was involved in the tree planting in 30's,but it fits his guidlines.
sometime before 1960 photo some evergreens were planted for"safety".While i am not fan they do not affect play much or hurt design .
Do other's find that it was the 70's that  were the problem?It seems that people lost touch with the original design concepts and wanted to fill in any spaces left between holes and more problematically people thought certain holes were too easy.
You will find it very frustrating to point out "bad"trees to people,so you have to pick your spots.
I THINK EVERGREENS NEAR GREENS THAT PROVIDE NO FULL RECOVERY SHOT AND ARE  THERE JUST TO MAKE THE HOLE HARDER ARE #1 ON MY LIST.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2002, 09:37:57 AM »
Question for the Treehouse:

Is it possible to eliminate Poa Annua in the Northeast?  Is the re-grassing that is taking place at many courses done specifically to help prevent anthracnos or is it to eliminate the Poa, or both?  Aronimink went through a similar process two years ago yet there is still Poa in the Fairways and some in the greens.

The greens are still very fast.

Best
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2002, 09:41:05 AM »
mayday,

It sounds as though the regrassing of the greens may have had additional benefits if trees were removed to improve sunlight and circulation.  Sure sounds like a win/win situation to me!  Great to hear!  

And yes, I would agree from what I've seen that the period from say 1960 to 1980 involved more tree-planting than any other time in golf history.  It used to be a badge of honor for someone to say "my course is TIGHT", as if having bowling alleys for golf holes was a desirable thing.  I believe it was due to this macho "difficulty" factor as much as any desire for "beautification", per se.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2002, 10:45:22 AM »
Mayday:

As far as I can tell so far about William Flynn and his advocacy of using trees for strategic reasons is he believed they definitely could and should be used!

I can't see where he ever recommended planting them exactly but what he did in many cases is advocate their use if they were there!! There's plently of evidence of his designing holes and concepts around trees that existed on sites when he went in to design and build! This is all backed up by what he not only said about the use of trees but what he said about it being a departure from the 'passe' thinking of some of the original "immigrant Scottish' architects.

There are plenty on this board who can't seem to accept that, even today. It's fine to not accept Flynn's thinking but for God's sake don't try to act like he never said it or believed it! He did say it and he did believe it!

For the best quality agronomy though there's nothing like sunlight and that sure wasn't lost on the likes of Flynn. Flynn was a real expert on agronomy! The most important of all is very early morning sunlight too.

MikeC;

From what I hear some evidence of anthracnose showed up at Bent Creek. Maybe they think they have no poa on their greens but into their tenth year or so maybe they aren't right about that. Either that or anthracnose can infect bent too--but nothing like Poa I don't think!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2002, 11:28:04 AM »
TEPaul
I would be interested  in learning more about  Flynn's concepts on strategy of trees.Clearly he used trees for strategy at Rolling Green.The last 100 yds. of #13 required drive to left side,so not to be in jail on right.The corner of dogleg of #15 and #17 on left in 1926 allowed for shot over trees to cut dogleg and have better shot to green.
This  is why i speak of focusing on trees PLANTED later that violate his concept of having a recovery shot.Flynn lovers should not be tree haters.I think it is fun to deal with trees that knock your ball down but allow for full shot thereafter.
But where did he plant them?I think he may have been involved in our 30's plantings,because they follow his concepts.
Plus we had much done to Rolling Green in the first ten years to traps and even the addition of a second green on15!!!!
This leads me to believe Flynn said "Let's see how course plays and i'lll come back"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2002, 11:46:35 AM »
Mayday;

I think you've got things just about right in your last post--about Flynn and trees and generally speaking!! I've never seen much of anything from any early architect about leaving a club with a tree planting program or not for the future.

If any of the early architects said anything at all about that it may have been only encompassed in a general remark that almost all of them made. And that remark makes as much sense today as at any time.

The remark was basically if a club considers any changes to a golf courses, presumably or certainly including tree planting, the very first thing that club should do is CONSULT A PROFESSIONAL ARCHITECT!!

Mayday, I don't know you but I'm wondering with a name like yours if it's safe to spend much time around you!?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2002, 11:50:48 AM »
Dave Miller
we gassed greens but just"rounded up" fairways.We also replaced all approaches to create way to grab poa.Since fairways were not gassed the roots of poa are still there.
I heard that Philly Country tries to combat poa on fairways in the heat.Ithink bent stands up better to less water and more heat than poa.I hope so
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2002, 12:04:34 PM »
Mayday:

Keep in mind that poa will come back (into greens)! It's inevitable! It's only a matter of when and how long you can keep it out! Poa is everywhere, it's probably even on the bottom of your golf shoes as we speak! You may even get poa and anthracnose on your livingroom carpet if you aren't careful! Wash your feet too every night or you might get both in the bottom of your bed!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2002, 12:11:56 PM »
TEPaul
I am waiting for formal introduction to you.I believe mr.morrison is going to do it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2002, 01:00:08 PM »
TEPaul
So that must be it.I did not wear socks today because i thought i had athlete's foot that needed to get some air.But i think i have poa in there and possibly anthracnose.When we went to Ireland last year it was after agricultural disease problem.We said the mats at the airport were to keep poa out of Ireland!!!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rolling Green - Thoughts
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2002, 09:51:21 AM »
One of the most interesting aspects of Rolling Green is that much like Donald Ross, Flynn was amazingly adept at finding the high spots to locate tees and greens, and probably even more inspired at routing.  

As with many of his northeast courses, the property has very significant elevation change, yet at no point does one feel the physical effect nor are any areas on the site wasted because Flynn was not able to creatively utilize them.  At Rolling Green, he attacks some of the uphills and downhills head on, such as the gradually climbing 9th or the vistas from the 7th and 11th tees, while in other places he moves to these elevation changes rather diagonally, utilzing the existing sideslopes to great advantage, such as the par three 10th and 14th holes, or the approach to 2, 7, and 18.  Flynn transitions one across the property so adeptly that you look back and realize you've made significant climbs or ascents with the previous shot without sometimes being aware of their impact on your shot, and there is a great deal of visual deception inherent in that approach.    

All in all, I would heartily concur with previous comments that cited the great variety of holes that Flynn was able to find on the property, as well as the subsequent balance and pacing.  Although there are quite a number of really demanding and difficult holes, at no point does the golfer feel beaten down, or that the challenge is insurmountable...only inspiring.  

The greens are as good as I've seen from Flynn, with all sort of countering contours running in opposition to the fall of the land, and almost every green can play from relatively easy to exceedingly stringent depending on hole location.  The bunkering is thoughtful, and at greenside can really influence what might be attainable.  There are plenty of holes where finding the middle of the green is often the best play, rather than firing at tucked pins.  

I would also concur that a number of trees planted in the past thirty years should be removed, and many of them are cited in the club's Master Plan.  However, there are also many beautiful mature trees, well back from the playing avenues, that add a certain majesty and grace to the property and it's clear from everything I've seen that Flynn wanted them them for hole isolation.  

Unusually, the course ends with a pair of shortish par fives at 485 and 505, for a par of 71 and a total course yardage of 6628 yards.  Flynn had an affinity for "half par" holes, and there is evidence that those holes fall into that category.  There is some discussion at present to shorten 18 and make it a long par four finish, but in my opinion, 17 would be the better of the two as a bear of a par four at slightly reduced yardage (or perhaps even the same from the back tee) with a gambling tee shot needed to have a shot at the green.  Leaving 18 to follow as a real potential birdie hole would seem to me to be more consistent with the variety, balance, and sense of optimism that are the hallmarks of this wonderful course.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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