[Kyle Henderson]

My ranking of Doak courses are as follows:

1.  Pacific Dunes
2.  Stone Eagle


That wasn't so hard now was it ....

I can go one easier.

1. Ballyneal

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Nice call on Pasatiempo...definitly a fantastic course but not what I would call a pleasant walk.

My Doak rating.

1) Pac Dunes - 2
2)  Ballyneal - 1.5




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Just kidding on the numerical ratings, don't rant back at me. 

[Bart Bradley]

Bart:

Sorry I missed you Sunday!  I was there all day.  Walked 36 myself.  I'm a short fat guy.

And well... I guess we all just have different standards.  There's no way I can call that course an incredibly pleasant walk.  No way.  Now if you want to call it an incredibly pleasant, incredibly fun round of golf - that I will back you on until the cows come home.  But the walk?   I guess my standard for that is flat courses with zero walks backward to tees.  Again, I am absolutely not saying BN is a bad walk in any way, nor is this meant to be negative at all.  It's just interesting to me the different standards we all have.

Look at it this way:  a few on here called Pasatiempo a pleasant walk also.  Good lord are those standards different than mine.... one only covers about 1000 feet of elevation change there (exaggerated, but hopefully you get the point).

TH

Tom:

I am sorry that I missed you too..but I am more sorry my writing skills stink.  I was there Sun/Mon Labor Day weekend ...not last Sunday....sooo, I missed you by 2 weeks  (you were probably wondering what the hell I was talking about with regards to the wind...how windy was your day?)

Bart

[Tom Huckaby]

Bart - no hassles man.  And it did get that windy for at least part of the time I was there.

TH

[Sean_A]

My ranking of Doak courses are as follows:

1.  Pacific Dunes
2.  Stone Eagle


That wasn't so hard now was it ....

I can go one easier.

1. Ballyneal

I can go one easier

---------

Doak hasn't called me for a game yet.  No worries, I am a patient man.

Ciao

[Jonathan Cummings]

Mark Fine - your premise to list a rating of the properties, absent a golf course, is intriguing.  I'll have to think about my Doak list in a new light and compare the two.

Tom D - as you know quite well and have cited, a few of your courses I have seen only once.  These include High Point (10 years ago), Heathlands (12 years ago), SAB (3 years ago) Lost Dunes (4 years ago) and Beechtree (also 8 years ago).  The rest of your layouts I've listed I've seen multiple times.  Weigh my opinions accordingly.  I will say this - my companions playing each of these single-play tracts were, almost to a tee, all in agreement as to their assessment.

Just one voice..

JC

[Jonathan Cummings]

Jon S - Have you played Apache Stronghold?  If so, would you rate it better or worse than Stone Canyon?  If not please tell me the areas Stone Eagle exceeds AS.  Forget the damn conditioning - it's a minor and transitory issue when comparing the character and insight of the two designs.

I am completely befuddled by anyone who places Stone Eagle high on any list and would love to hear their rationale.

JC   

[Tim Bert]

Just a point of clarification for those that have played Ballyneal recently, and for those debating the tough walk. 

Is it mandatory caddies, or can you carry your bag?  I could see the comments about it being a tough walk if you are toting a bag and playing 36 a day, but if a caddie is hauling the bag, then I vote not a tough walk.

Huck - I know how much you love Sand Hills, so I have to ask.  Do you consider it a tough walk?  I think Ballyneal is an easier walk than Sand Hills.  I could understand someone's perspective that both were tough carrying the bag. 

[PThomas]

SOME RANDOM THOUGHTS IN CAPS BELOW

Pac Dunes         10 - AGREE
Ballyneal            9- AGREE
Sebonak            8.5 - I FIND OUT IN 10 DAYS!
(Atlantic City)         8 - PLAYED IN HEAVY SQUALL-LIKE RAIN SO DON'T THINK I CAN GIVE IT A FAIR RATING
Apache Stronghold         8 - MAN I GOTTA GET THERE...AT LEAST 1 PERSON I KNOW THINKS IT IS TOM'S BEST DESIGN
Dunes         6.5 - AT LEAST A 7, GREENS ARE AWESOME!
Beechtree         5.5 -AGREE
Stone Eagle         5 - BETTER THAN A 5...A COURSE I WANT TO PLAY AGAIN BECAUSE MY CADDY WAS BAD AND I THINK ITS  A COURSE THAT REQUIRES CHOICES AND THOUGHT OFF THE TEE
Black Forest         5 - TOO LOW!!
High Pointe         4.5 - WAY TOO LOW!
Riverfront            4 - I'D GIVE IT A 5
            
(Parentheses are redos)            

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Help me out with one of your last comments -- conditioning (the lack therof) at AS it has been neither "minor" nor "transitory." It's been a constant drag on what the design should ultimately be. Doak provided a quality design but the conditioning needs to lend itself to the elements from which the design was premised. When conditioning is completely absent then the person doing the assessment is left with a "what if" belief.

I don't doubt your love for AS -- I really liked it too but the issues of "character" and "insight" of any golf design can only reach their true potential when conditioning plays a meaingful SUPPORT function. Such a support function needs to operate at a base level that provides a platform in which the design elements can truly shine.

That has not happened during my last two visits to AS -- it has become more of a frustration to see the inability / inertia, call it what one will, on what has happened there.

Jonathan, if conditioning were an equal item between Stone Eagle and AS I can see your point of view in regards to what course is the better one. However, as matters stand, I would respectfully urge you to give AS nothing more than an incomplete grade because until the conditioning element can contribute to the time when there you are simply basing your comments on a possibility rather than actual reality.

[Tom Huckaby]

Just a point of clarification for those that have played Ballyneal recently, and for those debating the tough walk. 

Is it mandatory caddies, or can you carry your bag?  I could see the comments about it being a tough walk if you are toting a bag and playing 36 a day, but if a caddie is hauling the bag, then I vote not a tough walk.

Huck - I know how much you love Sand Hills, so I have to ask.  Do you consider it a tough walk?  I think Ballyneal is an easier walk than Sand Hills.  I could understand someone's perspective that both were tough carrying the bag. 

Tim:

Sand Hills is a medium-difficult walk, for sure.  Ballyneal is a little easier, primarily because there aren't the walks through the scrub that Sand Hills requires, but on the other hand Ballyneal does have a few annoying treks backward to back tees, something Sand Hills never does.  So while on the overall I would agree Ballyneal is a slightly easier walk, for me, it wasn't like night and day or anything.  I'd call them more similar than different.

Of course either is easier with a caddie.

TH

[Jerry Kluger]

Huck: I can remember climbing up to tee boxes and having to walk back to tee boxes at Sand Hills far more than Ballyneal.  Ballyneal was designed as a walking only course and certainly there are very limited circumstances where you feel like you are climbing to get from a green to a tee.

Stone Eagle perhaps is not TD's best course but that does not mean that it is not a top notch design.  Conditioning was outstanding when I playing it and the green contours and green complexes were certainly way above a 5.  The site made it awkward to have many holes going across as opposed to up and down, but there were cross features such as rock outcroppings and bunkers which made the player seriously the risks in playing on a particular line. 

Surely conditioning plays an extremely important role in the overall quality of a course.  A course in poor condition with bare fairways and greens should not be considered a top overall course - it may be an outstanding design, but poor conditioning should eliminate it from consideration as a top course.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck: I can remember climbing up to tee boxes and having to walk back to tee boxes at Sand Hills far more than Ballyneal.  Ballyneal was designed as a walking only course and certainly there are very limited circumstances where you feel like you are climbing to get from a green to a tee.

Jerry:

I just played both in the last week, 4 rounds BN, 3 rounds SH.  It turns on what tees you are playing.  If one plays short or middle tees, then oh yes BN works wonderfully - it's always off green to tee.  But if one plays back tees, there are several instances of walking backwards or way off to the side, away from play (2, 7, 8, 11, 12, 15, 16, 18).  So it's not "climbing" to a tee, it's more the little annoyance of walking backwards when one COULD avoid that playing an up tee.   At Sand Hills it's the opposite... one always walks off the green and to the back tee, then up to forward tees, following the hole.  So it's a little pick your poison.  For me playing mostly back tees, Sand Hills worked better in this respect (but of course was way worse in terms of trekking through scrub from tee to fairway).  If one played mostly up tees, Ballyneal would.  In any case, this also assumes that one plays Sand Hills WALKING.... if you play out of a cart, yes you do do a lot of walking back and up to tees, as the cart paths leave you in odd places. 

As stated earlier, I found neither to be an easy walk (with Ballyneal on the overall being a little easier), but good lord are both enjoyable.  This talk about the walk seems like such hair-splitting to me... hell I didn't notice it at either place until soaking my feet at night... both courses are so damn fun.

[Tim Bert]

I just played both in the last week, 4 rounds BN, 3 rounds SH. 

Well, that's a pretty good week.   

With that kind of lineup, who cares if the walk is hard!

You acknowledged that both would be less cumbersome walks with caddies.  Does that mean you didn't take caddies?  I was under the impression that caddies were going to be required at BN, and I still can't imagine viewing BN as a moderately difficult walk with a caddie toting the bag.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - what I meant was it's pretty obvious ANY walk is easier with someone else carrying the clubs!

And I am not exactly sure how it works at either place.  At BN, we took caddies when we wanted to - and that meant we had caddies each morning round, toted our own each afternoon round.  At SH it was after the season so no caddies were available; there we walked in the am and carted in the pm.  In previous trips to SH I have taken caddies however; again it seems to be if you ask for it - assuming caddies are available - you get what you want.

In any case, I can't see ANY walk being called difficult with a caddie carrying one's clubs.  I guess the minor annoyance at BN going backward to back tees would still exist, and the larger annoyance at SH going down and through scrub from tee to fairway would still exist, but it's all rather non-applicable if one has a caddie.  Or at least it should be!

I'm just one who doesn't WANT to take caddies all the time, to be honest.  As much as they help with fatigue, at times they decrease from the mojo.  That is, my friends and I wanted to give each other all the crap we do without having to explain it.  So it worked well to have caddies one round, screw around ourselves the next.

TH

ps - yes it was a great week.  We played Co GC twice also.  And I said none of this is any big deal... people keep asking questions, I keep answering, that's all.

[Tim Bert]

Thanks for the clarification on the caddies.  The fact that you toted in the afternoon puts in in better perspective.  I got your point that any course would be easier with a caddie, but I wasn't understanding where the basis of this conversation was coming from as I thought all the rounds at BN were caddied.  I knew there were options at Sand Hills in that I saw walk & caddie, walk & carry, and carts in the two days I was there.

If you were playing 36 a day at BN, and toting in the afternoon then I could see it being a bit more difficult with the bag on the shoulders.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - you've got it - no hassles.

Bottom line remains is that good lord are both fun courses....

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas my man:

I never doubted it was great.
I was incredulous about the courses to which you preferred it.
And I am not seeing much evidence that others agree with you there... you basically had it as your favorite course in this country... has anyone else said that?

Am I missing something?

The only one who seems to have opined at all is Jonathan, and he called it a GW8, behind 5 other Doak courses....

Perhaps best to put down the pipe?

 

[Tom Huckaby]

One of these days people are going to wake up and realize that the modern 10s are better than the classical 10s....apparently, today is not the day...

\

OK, but what in the name of Sam Hill does that have to do with your accusations of me?

It's nice to hear everybody who's played it since then come on here and validate that I haven't been spending too much time in Spicoli's van...

And just who has validated your claim?  Moriarty convinced me that my statements to you were unfair, but hell they were INTENDED to be such.  Just who here - or anywhere - has validated your claim that this course should be considered their favorite in the country?

Jonathan's 8 is screaming pretty loudly right now....

[Tom Huckaby]

You'll see, Tom.  You'll see.  Sometimes it takes people a while to come around.  These guys giving 8s are going to realize it's a modern 10 sooner or later...they're just being conservative for now because they fear the Huckabian anti-gushing backlash.... 

OK, so YOU get to speculate about future changes of heart, and it's all good... but when I do the same, I get "corrected."

Uh-huh.

Hell the course may well be a 10.  It may well be the best course on this planet.   There's sure no reason why it can't be.  Just don't claim any validation of your claims.  Not yet.

TH

[Adam Clayman]

Dave, That's a keen observation about the M v. C.

It makes total sense too, because the guys building the modern 9 and 10's have built respectively on the shoulders of giants.

Tim Bert, The caddie policy at BN is rather fluid. When the kids are back in school caddies are not mandatory. Hopefully we will always have gentlemen, who are not kids, love the course, the job, and, the people, the way the one's we have do currently. Of course golfing privileges helps.

Huck, Enough of this stuff. Get to the real deal. Who had the better soup?

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck, Enough of this stuff. Get to the real deal. Who had the better soup?

Now THAT is a great question, very relevant, and one I can easily answer.

If there is a better dish on this planet than the Green Chile at Ballyneal, then I don't deserve to have it.  Second only to it would have to be the lobster macaroni and cheese.

I have found culinary perfection, and it is just outside of Holyoke, Colorado.

And you know what?  Everything else consumed there was also very top-notch.  You remain a very very lucky man, my friend.

 

TH

ps to shivas:  if every there was proof of your stoned-ness, that last post is all we need.  You as a thought leader and trend setter... yeah you TRY to be such, for sure... but effort does not equal success.   

[Tom Huckaby]

ps to shivas:  if every there was proof of your stoned-ness, that last post is all we need.  You as a thought leader and trend setter... yeah you TRY to be such, for sure... but effort does not equal success.   

It's the natural result of superior intelligence, requiring no effort whatsoever.... 

Actually, it's the result of my still-forming theory that we are all doomed to fail at anything we try too hard at... 

LOL!  I like that theory.  You must prove it on a daily basis.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

So I think what really does work is kind of an inverse of your theory - which seems to be what you are getting at.... that is the less we actively want to achieve something, the more likely it is to finally occur.  It goes for birdies as well as eagles.

I'd also mention my ace - which is a perfect example of it, it happening only when I ceased caring so much to make it occur - but you'd just tell me that didn't count, so forget that. 

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

The fact that you would even mention that outstanding piece of PRACTICE is proof of my theory - because you want it sooooooooooo badly to be recognized as an ace.   

Envy is not an attractive trait, my friend.

In any case, back to your theory.... I had more evidence of it last week.  I went five rounds without a birdie, as my hack friends made many, all giving me shit throughout at my lack thereof.  Only when I gave up on ever making one the entire trip did the birdie come - followed by several others.  The golf gods are always watching.

TH

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