[Tony Ristola]

There are a lot of replica Biarritz par-3's, but isn't the green better, far more interesting as a medium length shortish 4 as done at North Berwick? There are tons of interesting ways to make a par-3, but the medium length four is tougher. I'm surprised it isn't used this way more often.

And while on the topic of North Berwick and short 4's... versions of The Pit. Instead of a stone wall, a dirt berm with  few bunkers on both sides... or not could be used. Instead of a dune, a bunker... etc.

That course really has a great set of not too long 4's coming home.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tony,

I agree. I used a deep Biarritz at Fortune bay on a 344 yard par 4.  Maybe driveable, but for the narrow gap of trees, but either way makes the approach shot very interesting.  I have used sideways Biarritz greens on short 4s and 5s as well.  Not sure they really make much sense on long par 3 holes.

I understand the concept was a running shot that came back up through the valley, and in the old days, 220 was a perfect 3 wood for most.  But what length would that running shot have to be now?  Back tees might have to be over 250, and maybe close to 300.  At least all other tees could adjust, but it seems the short 4 and reachable 5's have the most possibilities for a running shot. 

[Tim Bert]

My home course has a "pseudo Biarritz" on the back end of a long par 5.  I say pseudo because it is deep and has three distinct tiers (front and back are higher than the middle) but the elevation change is much more subtle than most of the Biarritz greens I've played or seen in pictures.  The middle is much deeper than what you'd see at Yale and is frequently used for pin locations.

The hole is 580 yards from the tee I play and stretches to 600 from the tips.  For a really big hitter, there may not be a running shot in but for the most part that's what I'm playing.  I've had as little as 135-150 in when I stripe two good shots, but I'm normally looking at 180-210.  That's to the middle, so it is often playing more like 200-230 to the back.

There's a cluster of trees on the left that impact the tee shot that could use a good chainsaw, but that's for a different topic.

My real point here is that I think this style green can work on a long par 5 as well.  Probably not for tour players or the longest hitters, but for those of us playing mortal distances it works. 

[Bill_McBride]

Tony,

I agree. I used a deep Biarritz at Fortune bay on a 344 yard par 4.  Maybe driveable, but for the narrow gap of trees, but either way makes the approach shot very interesting.  I have used sideways Biarritz greens on short 4s and 5s as well.  Not sure they really make much sense on long par 3 holes.

I understand the concept was a running shot that came back up through the valley, and in the old days, 220 was a perfect 3 wood for most.  But what length would that running shot have to be now?  Back tees might have to be over 250, and maybe close to 300.  At least all other tees could adjust, but it seems the short 4 and reachable 5's have the most possibilities for a running shot. 

Jeff, Jerry Pate built a combo Reverse Redan / Biarritz for our new #7 at Pensacola CC.  It's 245 from the tips, 215 from the blues, 196 from the whites, 150 from the forward reds.   There's a little kicker in the front left that will feed a low shot onto the green.  The swale bisects the green back to front, with a smaller rear tier.  With the pin back right today I hit a solid 5 wood from the 215 tee and it scooted down into the swale and stayed there.  Fun stuff.

You can make out the front left slope that kicks low shots to the right, and the swale is visible back right peeking out from the slope above the bunker.

[TEPaul]

Bill:

In theory, at least, that Pensacola hole in the photo seems interesting but I'd really appreciate it if you would do something for me. That is to measure the distance from the front of the green to the beginning of the swale and then measure the distance from the other side of the swale to the back of the green on that back tier.

After you've done that I might have another question for you about that green and I'll also explain to you why I'm asking this.

Thanks.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The age old question is, what constitutes an original idea?  Is combining two CBM templates and reversing them a new idea? I tend to think so, but wonder what others think.

The other question is, does a five metal really roll enough to get your through the valley, or would a choked down, low but hard hit 3 metal do that better?  In normal conditions, can you count on the rollout?

Overall, it looks cool, but of course, I wonder if it really works as intended......

[TX Golf]

I have a question about a certain green. The 17th on the South Course at Landmark Golf Club (I believe the name has changed) in Indio, CA. I was curious if that is severe enough to be considered a Bairritz. Is the gully required to run from side to side or can it also run from the front to the back of the green. Thanks.

Robert

[RJ_Daley]

When does a biarritz become a double plateau?  Could it be called a double plateau if like Wild Bill shows, it is not front to back, but at an angle or side to side?  And, if that is found at the end of a par 4 or 5, is it then a double plateau and can't be a biarritz? 

Anotherwords, does a biarritz have to be on a par 3, and does it have to be front green, middle swale, back green?  If an improvised and altered configuration is presented, then it isn't a biarritz, it seems to me.  If so, Wild Bill, you have a 'redanaritz' at best... 

Can anyone imagine a combo of templates like a 'hog'sbowl' or 'alpsinleven' or 'bottlecape'? 

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

In theory, at least, that Pensacola hole in the photo seems interesting but I'd really appreciate it if you would do something for me. That is to measure the distance from the front of the green to the beginning of the swale and then measure the distance from the other side of the swale to the back of the green on that back tier.

After you've done that I might have another question for you about that green and I'll also explain to you why I'm asking this.

Thanks.

Tom, it's 60' from the front of the green to the drop off (fairly abrupt) of the swale, and then about 30' of swale, and then about 35' of green behind the swale.  The front and back are about level with each other although the back of the green is slightly elevated.

[Bill_McBride]

The age old question is, what constitutes an original idea?  Is combining two CBM templates and reversing them a new idea? I tend to think so, but wonder what others think.

The other question is, does a five metal really roll enough to get your through the valley, or would a choked down, low but hard hit 3 metal do that better?  In normal conditions, can you count on the rollout?

Overall, it looks cool, but of course, I wonder if it really works as intended......

Jeff, I wasn't carrying anything other than a driver and a metal 5-wood.  I've hit the driver into the wind from the far back of the 215 yard tee with the pin in the back, playing about 235 more or less.   

Yes, my 5-metal, which I did hit pretty low and solid, did not scamper up onto the back but laid there in the swale looking somewhat embarrassed.  I had hit the shot exactly as I wanted to, off the left slope, ran down into the swale and stayed there.

By contrast my wife hit driver from 150 and got through the swale into the froghair left.

It's a good hole when we can both play it about as designed from our respective tees!

[Bill_McBride]

When does a biarritz become a double plateau?  Could it be called a double plateau if like Wild Bill shows, it is not front to back, but at an angle or side to side?  And, if that is found at the end of a par 4 or 5, is it then a double plateau and can't be a biarritz? 

Anotherwords, does a biarritz have to be on a par 3, and does it have to be front green, middle swale, back green?  If an improvised and altered configuration is presented, then it isn't a biarritz, it seems to me.  If so, Wild Bill, you have a 'redanaritz' at best... 

Can anyone imagine a combo of templates like a 'hog'sbowl' or 'alpsinleven' or 'bottlecape'? 

Dick, sorry I wasn't clear, but the plateaux are front and back with the swale in between, so it's a biarritz.  When the plateaux are left and right (a la say #17 at Yale), that's a "double plateau."

Agreed that we have a hybrid of Redan (the slope) and Biarritz (the swale and two plateaux), but it really works.  You need to escape the frozen tundra of Green Bay and come down next winter for a few attempts! 

[Bill_McBride]

Bump for Tom Paul's analysis........

[Jim_Kennedy]

When does a biarritz become a double plateau?

RJ,
Read George's first  "Feature Interview"

[Mike Hendren]

My home course has a "pseudo Biarritz" on the back end of a long par 5. 

Tim,

I have termed this a "stretch Biarritz" as if someone grabbed the front and back of a traditional Biarritz green and pulled mightily.

It is really stellar architecture given the shallowness of the front tier and little false front in the middle.

Mike

[Tim Bert]

My home course has a "pseudo Biarritz" on the back end of a long par 5. 

Tim,

I have termed this a "stretch Biarritz" as if someone grabbed the front and back of a traditional Biarritz green and pulled mightily.

It is really stellar architecture given the shallowness of the front tier and little false front in the middle.

Mike

Agreed.  The front tier, while it can play 15 yards shorter than the middle and 40 yards shorter than the back tier can often be the toughest hit due to the size of the front surface combined with the false front.

[Lester George]

All the Biarritzs Ive built are between 190 feet and 230 feet deep.  This one adds up to 125 feet, don't think he quite made it, although an interesting look.

Jeff,

Is there anything NEW under the sun?

Lester

[Bill_McBride]

All the Biarritzs Ive built are between 190 feet and 230 feet deep.  This one adds up to 125 feet, don't think he quite made it, although an interesting look.

Jeff,

Is there anything NEW under the sun?

Lester

I just talked to Steve Dana who confirmed the 125 feet front to back.  As Steve says, we don't have the scale to have a hole with a 12,000 SF green.  #7's green is about 7,200 SF.  At 245/215 yards it is challenging, rated the #1 handicap hole for the men.

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