Did Mackenzie assist Colt with the Eden? NEW - Mac at the Eden post WW1

[Neil_Crafter]

This has been an issue that has wandered in and out of a number of threads of late, even one on the Addington. Did Mackenzie help Colt in the design of the Eden?

Well I have turned up an item that while it does not necessarily answer the question, at least gives us a very, very slight hint. As the Eden officially opened on July 2nd 1914, war was only a month or so away and any possible exposure the course may have got was rather quickly smothered as war broke out. It was not until 1919 and in a post-war climate that the course received any real due and the Town Council, whose course this was, decided to put on an invitational professional tournament with prizemoney totalling 155 pounds that concluded on Friday 27 June 1919. The event had an all star cast - Vardon, Taylor, Ray, Mitchell, Braid, Duncan, Herd and Ayton - and was won by Abe Mitchell.

'The Scotsman' reported on the event on 1 July 1919 and to quote an extract:

"One interesting opinion heard on Friday, when the professional tournament was played over the course, may be quoted. Dr Mackenzie, the well-known course architect, who was on the spot, described the Eden course as the second best in Scotland. The first, in his view, it need hardly be added, is also at St. Andrews. His claim for the Eden course would probably be disputed in more than one locality. The other is more likely of general acceptance - J. H. Taylor notably excepted."

So we know Mackenzie was there at St Andrews to watch the event over the Eden course. Was he there representing the fledgling partnership of Colt, Mackenzie and Alison? Or was his a more 'personal' involvement perhaps, to see how the course he assisted Colt with would be played by the mighty champions? Conjecture of course. But interesting nevertheless.

I'll be interested to hear all the pros and cons that people may wish to set forth.

Also, here's a rudimentary plan of the Eden from a Scotsman article from 3 July 1914 reporting on the course opening.

[Tom_Doak]

Neil:

I noticed that the plan is almost exactly the same course I played in 1982, EXCEPT that the 16th hole was moved to the other side of the old railway line at some point between 1913 and 1982.

[Thomas MacWood]

Neil
I take it Colt was not at the opening?

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom D
At least you've played it close to its original form. The original opening and finishing holes were changed I believe to accommodate a golf practice centre. Very sad. I have not seen the Eden course myself as on the occasion I visited St Andrews I only had time to see TOC.

Tom MacW
The report I have of the 1914 official opening makes mention of Colt as the architect but does not mention he was at the opening ceremony. As to the 1919 tournament, I imagine if Colt attended then the press might have interviewed him rather than Mackenzie and would likely have mentioned his attendance.

[Thomas MacWood]

Neil
Have you run across any Colt-Mackenzie collaborations prior to WWI?

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Not any documented ones at least. So far we have around 35 or so courses that Mackenzie either designed, redesigned or consulted to prior to WW1. So apart from Alwoodley, I haven't found anything to directly connect the two on any of the others.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Slightly off-topic I'm afraid because it's a question about the routing... It seems that 1,2, 17 and 18 were destroyed to create the practice range...
3,4,5,6,7 seem to now play as 1,2,3,4,5... Then the routing seems to change and my memory is a bit hazy...

The 10th in that diagram now plays as the 6th and then the new 7th comes back up...

The old Colt 14th now plays as the 8th and what a tricky, great one-shotter it is... I seem to remember an article showing outrage at that hole at the time of design and it was quickly modified to become more playable... Anyone help me out?... I wonder if Colt did the modification himself?...

I'd love to see a plan of the new routing overlayed on the old if someone fancies trying this...

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom
Not any documented ones at least. So far we have around 35 or so courses that Mackenzie either designed, redesigned or consulted to prior to WW1. So apart from Alwoodley, I haven't found anything to directly connect the two on any of the others.

Neil
I haven't found any either, which is why I tend to believe the Eden was a solo effort by Colt.

Ally
I believe Colt's partner Morrison carried out some changes just prior to WWII.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Colt and MacKenzie worked on Ganton pre WWI. Haven't found anything to suggest they were there concurrently, though.

Colt's work came in 1907 and 1908; Mac's in 1912. Don't know whether Colt handed the commission to Mac, which seems possible, or whether either had input into the other's work. Doubt it, but who knows?

If Mac was in St Andrews at the time that Colt was building a course there, and the two were partners, wouldn't Colt have welcomed the assistance?

[Thomas MacWood]

Mark
Neil's newspaper article has Mackenzie at St. Andrews in 1919. Was he also there in 1912/13?

[Rich Goodale]

Ally

I don't (can't) do overlays , but following is my analysis relative to the map in Neil's initial post.

Current Hole/Old Hole

1--old 3 with tee back by old 16 green
2--old 4
3--old 5
4--old 6
5--old 7 (but using old 14th tee)
6--old 10
7--old 13
8--old 14 (but using old 7th tee)
9--old 15
10--new hole
11--old 9
12--old 10
13--old 11
14, 15, 16, 17--new holes
18--old 16, but moved to the right sometime in the 1914-1982 period per Tom Doak's recollections

In addition to the old holes 1, 2, 17, and 18, the old 12th was eliminated at some point in time.  It lay between the new 13th green and the new 7th tee, and vestiges of it can still be seen.

Hope this helps.

Rioch

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom

Those dates are for Ganton.

Mark

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks Rich... I've pieced it all together now... I'd forgotten the new 10th...

[Paul_Turner]

Here that article I posted before, from just before WW1.  No Mackenzie mention.

Also Colt wrote an article in Country Life (Tom M found this) which describes the course in detail.

I haven't read of any connection between Mackenzie and Colt in the years just prior to WW1.  Mackenzie appears to be first connected to The Eden in Cornish and Whitten's books from the 1980s?  I think they made the mistaken assumption that they were working together before WW1.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ah the Meiklejohn article -- thanks for that Paul and Tom. Apparently Cecil Barcroft wrote a rebuttal in World of Golf. Have either of you found that article?

Here is an excerpt published as part of a 1914 column in the Christian Science Monitor:


Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Here is 3 July The Times's announcement of the official course opening:

St. Andrews Fourth Course

The new Eden course at St. Andrews, where there are now four, was formally opened for play yesterday by Provost Herkless.  Mrs. Herkless drove off the first ball.  A match followed between teams captained by Mr. Norman Boase, of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club, and Councillor Rusack.  The new course lies immediately to the westward of the old historic course, and adjoins the estuary of the river Eden.  It has been laid out under the superintendence of Mr. Harry Colt, of Sunningdale.  A new putting green on the Bruce Embankment was also formally opened for play.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Neil, I couldn't find any evidence of Colt's actually working on Alwoodley. He was only there for a couple of days and his job seems to have been advisory.

The club was formed in January 1907 and by 15th April of that year it is minuted ‘proposed and carried that the present course be played as laid out now’.

A minute of 31 July records, ‘The proposed alteration of the Course was discussed
with Mr Colt and it was unanimously resolved that it be adopted.’

I noted: Previous minutes had also used the word alteration, which suggests ongoing development
rather than a drastic change, and in all probability what Colt did was merely to narrow
down a number of options to one, and this was possibly concerned with general
routing rather than intricate detail. In MacKenzie’s mind, no doubt, Colt’s visit
was beneficial in quietening the more outspoken critics of the course among his fellow
committee members.

Fowler's name is also sometimes linked with Alwoodley, but the minutes suggest that his visit was similar to Colt's: ‘The construction of the Golf Course was discussed and criticised
and it was decided that no further bunkers be made until Mr H. Fowler of Walton
Heath has seen the course.’

It is not recorded what advice Fowler gave, but in a newspaper article written by Fowler after his visit he made various suggestions for amendments to the course (bunkering, resiting greens) which were not in fact carried out.

[Mark Bourgeois]

A little bit more on Colt-Mackenzie interactions from the Mackenzie timeline project:
*Colt introduced Mac to Robert Hunter in 1912, according to Bob Beck
*Colt proposed Mac for R&A membership 28 Sept 1913
*Mac was documented in Leeds on multiple occasions in 1911 and 1912

Items not in the timeline but possibly relevant:
*Colt must have been in Manchester some time(s) in 1911 to design Manchester Golf Club.  According to The Times, construction began March 1911; according to the club website the course opened 30 March 1912.  It was formally opened 25 September 1912 with a match involving Ray, Vardon, Duncan and Renouf (Manchester's pro)

What may be inferred about the pre-WWI relationship between Colt and Mackenzie from these items?

Mark

[Thomas MacWood]

Mark
That is the first I've seen Mackenzie mentioned as an R&A member.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Yes, we have had confirmed in the last few months by the R&A that Mackenzie was indeed an R&A member. Colt proposed him for membership as Mark says in September 1913 (with the name 'Alistair' on the form) and seconded by EW Scratton, but for whatever reason this was not received by the R&A until 7th January 1914. His membership election did not occur until 28th September 1915, two years after the proposal. At this point there is a notation under his name saying 'Royal Engineers'. Mackenzie did not play in a club competition until a mixed foursomes in August 1921 where he played with his wife. All up he played 10 times in club competitions through the 1920's, with his final appearance in May 1929. It doesn't say when his membership was finished, presumably with his death in 1934.
Neil

[Neil_Crafter]

The main issue for me in regards to a possible Mackenzie involvement on the Eden is when did Mackenzie acquire his significant knowledge of the Old Course and its nuances? He delivered lectures to the North of England Greenkeepers in 1913 and 1914 with significant St Andrews content that went on to be the basis of Golf Architecture and later, The Spirit of St Andrews. This must have involved a good deal of time playing and walking TOC. No better time than 1912/1913 while helping Colt out with the Eden. At least that would give him a reason to be in St Andrews for an extended period.

Mark R
Good point re Alwoodley, doesn't seem there was much interaction between the two there as Colt, as you point out was a 'consultant'

Mark B and Paul
Nice articles, especially the Golf Illustrated one. Thanks for contributing these.
The C&W reference to the Eden and Mackenzie's involvement goes all the way back to the listing in The Golf Course from 1981. Doesn't make it correct though of course.


Perhaps the 'smoking gun' piece of evidence doesn't exist, but there are a few circumstantial ones that does not rule out the possibility I think.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Neil

In Spirit he writes of lacking detailed knowledge until he began his map after the War.  He wrote of being astonished at how little he knew going in.  Of course, this could be relative; he did mention missing a few things in the map which "thankfully" no one seemed to notice.

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

What I find interesting about the pre-war Eden is the controversy it generated.  It would appear that Mackenzie and Colt alike "radicalized."  During this antebellum, post-Edwardian period both put forth designs that drew opprobrium.

Did that really happen?  Were their designs during this period bolder than what they did earlier in their careers? If so, how much was down to mutual reinforcement, an embryonic "school" if you will, perhaps snuffed out by the War?  How did each affect the other's design philosophy?

Comparing his words of 1906 to 1912 and looking at his work during this period it appears Colt might have changed his views on green contours and forced carries.  DSH note Mackenzie's Sitwell Park greens might have been the product of his being freed from the conservatism inherent in committees.

Mark

[Paul_Turner]

If there's no direct evidence of Mackenzie's involvement then the course should be credited to Colt alone, in my opinion.

The wild greens argument is bogus in my opinion:

Here's an early picture of Colt's St Cloud in Paris (thanks Stuart) which is from the same era (1912/1913).  Showing the 6th, a wild lumpy green (it was softened not too long ago).  It seems that Colt liked sideways tiers in his earlier designs;  St George's Hill has several and we know he had to soften some of these very early on.

[Mike_Cirba]

As someone who has really demanded concrete proof on other threads before modifying accepted architectural attribution, I'm struggling in reading this thread to determine exactly why folks are hypothesizing that Mackenzie may have had something to do with the Eden?

It seems very clear in the contemporaneous accounts that Harry Colt was the architect.   

What am I missing?