Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt

[Thomas MacWood]

"TE
Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall you ever giving any specific details as to who did what and when at Myopia, GCGC or Oakmont. I assumed you had no clue. Please elaborate."

Mr. MacWood:

Apparently you did miss a lot which really isn't surprising for someone who admitted on here he doesn't even bother to read threads that're over two paragraphs.

Why would I bother trying to educate you again on the specifics of the architectural histories of any of these courses? That last time I quoted on here from Myopia's history book which quoted some of the meetings in 1894 and other years, you responded on here that Myopia should scrap their entire archtitectural history and start from scratch.

Why would I try to educate, AGAIN, someone who says something that nonsensical?

But if you missed any specifics on here in the past then try using the search feature. You said you understand how to do that, didn't you? Well, then, do it. I see know reason to spend time trying to individually educate you on these important clubs you know so little about directly.

And AGAIN, don't talk to anyone on here about producing "documentation" unless and until you produce documentation on Campbell designing the original nine of Myopia as well as documentation of when he first arrived in this country. Get to that, Mr. MacWood, and stop avoiding the issue as if it hasn't been asked before.

TE
Whatever you say. For a guy who claims to know a lot about the architectural history of these clubs you sure don't have a whole lot of facts at your disposal.

[TEPaul]

"TE
Whatever you say. For a guy who claims to know a lot about the architectural history of these clubs you sure don't have a whole lot of facts at your disposal."

Mr. MacWood:

Why would you say that? Would it be because I've never tried to educate you on everything I know about the architectural histories of some of these clubs and courses? 

I've provided you with the facts of what Myopia's own administration in 1894 recorded as the facts of who laid out their original nine and looked at the way you treated that. I've provided you with the facts of what the administration of MCC said about the creation of Merion East in 1910 and 1911 and look at the way you treat that. Given all that and after all that why would anyone try to educate you on the factual history of a club and their course? 

[Thomas MacWood]

PeterP:

It was Leeds unless there was some other "amateur/sportsman" at Myopia we don't know about who sailed in America Cup yacht racing, and apparently went around the world and wrote a book about yachting. Many of those guys back then were remarkable all around sportsmen. Leeds had also been a star shortstop in baseball and footballer for Harvard.

Apparently, Mr. MacWood doesn't exactly understand that as he mentioned on here that in his opinion it is preposterous to think a man at Myopia (R.M. Appleton) who was the club's premier huntsman could actually lay out a golf course for Myopia even despite the fact he had a golf course of his own before that on his own estate in Ipswich, Appleton Farm. 

TE
Once again your powers of distortion have gotten the better of you. I said Campbell designed the original nine at Myopia, not Appleton was incapable. Alister Mackenzie designed ANGC. One should not then conclude Bob Jones was therefore an incompetitent.

You had a very similar emotional reaction when it was suggested Macdonald or Barker assisted at Merion or Colt at PV. You are so emotionally tied to these legends even the slightest suggestion of an assisting hand puts you into attack mode. "So and so has a secret agenda" or "so and so is only interested in self promotion" or "so and so has never been to this club so he can't possible know." You obviously believe any credit given to another is a direct attack on Wilson or Crump's accomplishments. This is not a zero sum game.

[Thomas MacWood]

"TE
Whatever you say. For a guy who claims to know a lot about the architectural history of these clubs you sure don't have a whole lot of facts at your disposal."

Mr. MacWood:

Why would you say that? Would it be because I've never tried to educate you on everything I know about the architectural histories of some of these clubs and courses? 

I've provided you with the facts of what Myopia's own administration in 1894 recorded as the facts of who laid out their original nine and looked at the way you treated that.  GIven that why would anyone try to educate you on the factual history of a club? 

TE
You've been sharing what you know on this site for many years.

[TEPaul]

"TE
Once again your powers of distortion have gotten the better of you. I said Campbell designed the original nine at Myopia, not Appleton was incapable. Alister Mackenzie designed ANGC. One should not then conclude Bob Jones was therefore an incompetitent."


Mr. MacWood:

No, I'm afraid when I informed you that Appleton was the Master of the Myopia Fox Hounds in 1894 you said it was really illogical to state that the master of the fox hounds could lay out a golf course. That remark of yours is in the back pages of this website for all to see. If you delete it at this point I will point to the time on the post.

That is true about Bob Jones and ANGC. It is also true about Hugh Wilson and Merion East.  Perhaps when you reviewed "The Missing Faces of Merion" you should have pointed that out to the author and that way hopefully neither one of you would've used that as some logic to presume that Macdonald/Whigam must have done it for Hugh Wilson and his committee because he was too much the novice to have done it on his own with his committee.   

[DMoriarty]

I've been keeping an eye on this thread, hoping to get some better understanding of the course at Myopia, but unfortunately, with the exception of a description of the first hole, very little information about the actual course has been shared.     

What was the course like in 1909, specifically?   Does anyone know?   If so, how do you know?

________________________

Tom Paul,

I did not disrespect or diminish Hugh Wilson's accomplishments in my essay.    I'd appreciate if you would stop trying to falsely smear me and my work.    If you cannot address my work substantively, just let it go.

[TEPaul]

"TE
You've been sharing what you know on this site for many years."

Mr. MacWood:

Yes I have but certainly not all of it. There is some information which has not been in the public domain which some of the clubs I'm involved with would prefer not to have on this website. I would even be glad to explain to you why some of them generally prefer it that way even though I believe I have explained that to you a number of times in the past. Those explanations may've been in posts that were more than two paragraphs so perhaps you didn't read them. 

[TEPaul]

"You had a very similar emotional reaction when it was suggested Macdonald or Barker assisted at Merion or Colt at PV. You are so emotionally tied to these legends even the slightest suggestion of an assisting hand puts you into attack mode. "So and so has a secret agenda" or "so and so is only interested in self promotion" or "so and so has never been to this club so he can't possible know." You obviously believe any credit given to another is a direct attack on Wilson or Crump's accomplishments. This is not a zero sum game."

Mr. MacWood:

It's too bad you only see what you want to see and you disregard the rest or just miss it.

I told you many times on here (it's all in the threads now in the back pages on Pine Valley) that I'm quite sure since I know so many of them that numerous members of Pine Valley for many years assumed that Harry Colt routed and designed Pine Valley and I even explained to you exactly why that was so---eg they were always aware of Colt's Hole by Hole booklet that has ALWAYS been in their archives and no one really understood that so-called "red/blue line" contour map of the course and what it meant. 

So, in other words many members always thought Colt did far more than he actually did. In many ways, Mr. Finegan's latest history of Pine Valley changed that thinking and when I informed Jim of a few misinterpretations he made in his book in that vein, the true history of who did what and when is now available to the club.

All of that is in threads in the back pages of this website as well, but, again, it must have been in some posts of more than two paragraphs and so I guess you missed that too, as it surely seems from your latest remark above you did not remember it.

[Thomas MacWood]

"TE
Once again your powers of distortion have gotten the better of you. I said Campbell designed the original nine at Myopia, not Appleton was incapable. Alister Mackenzie designed ANGC. One should not then conclude Bob Jones was therefore an incompetitent."


Mr. MacWood:

No, I'm afraid when I informed you that Appleton was the Master of the Myopia Fox Hounds in 1894 you said it was really illogical to state that the master of the fox hounds could lay out a golf course. That remark of yours is in the back pages of this website for all to see. If you delete it at this point I will point to the time on the post.

If I said anything like that you should have no problem finding it. I did not.

That is true about Bob Jones and ANGC. It is also true about Hugh Wilson and Merion East.  Perhaps when you reviewed "The Missing Faces of Merion" you should have pointed that out to the author and that way hopefully neither one of you would've used that as some logic to presume that Macdonald/Whigam must have done it for Hugh Wilson and his committee because he was too much the novice to have done it on his own with his committee.   

This is a perfect example of my previous post. Wow!

"TE
You've been sharing what you know on this site for many years."

Mr. MacWood:

Yes I have but certainly not all of it. There is some information which has not been in the public domain which some of the clubs I'm involved with would prefer not to have on this website. I would even be glad to explain to you why some of them generally prefer it that way even though I believe I have explained that to you a number of times in the past. Those explanations may've been in posts that were more than two paragraphs so perhaps you didn't read them.  

We have a record of 32,000 posts that show us your historical knowledge.

[TEPaul]

"You are so emotionally tied to these legends even the slightest suggestion of an assisting hand puts you into attack mode. "So and so has a secret agenda" or "so and so is only interested in self promotion" or "so and so has never been to this club so he can't possible know." You obviously believe any credit given to another is a direct attack on Wilson or Crump's accomplishments."


Mr. MacWood:

That above is essentially the sum and substance of your term "Philadelphia Syndrome" that you have been using as your excuse and rational for why we continue to counter the revisionism you produce on here to do with a few famous Philadephia courses, the history of their archtiecture and their architects.

That term has some pretty good currency in this area now and it is considered to be a damn good joke, particularly at and around Merion GC.!


PS:
A couple of months ago when there was a hold up on the 17th tee and old time Merion member who I really don't know turned to me and said: "Did you happen to notice Macdonald/Whigam's and H.H. Barker's routings hiding in the bushes in the quarry on the last hole?"   

[DMoriarty]

Tom Paul,

I don't think Tom MacWood said anything about Philadelphia.  He was referring to you.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Do you deny saying on here that in your opinion Myopia should throw out their history and start from scratch?  


Furthermore, perhaps you might try to explain why you think Myopia was telling a lie in their administrative meetings in 1894 when they recorded that Appleton, Merrill and Gardner went out there in the spring of 1894 and laid out the original nine holes.  

[DMoriarty]

Mr. MacWood:

Do you deny saying on here that in your opinion Myopia should throw out their history and start from scratch? 


Furthermore, perhaps you might try to explain why you think Myopia was telling a lie in their administrative meetings in 1894 when they recorded that Appleton, Merrill and Gardner went out there in the spring of 1894 and laid out the original nine holes.   

What, exactly, do those minutes say?  Are you sure you are not referring to their history book? 

[TEPaul]

"This is a perfect example of my previous post. Wow!"

Mr. MacWood:

What it's really a perfect example of is the remarkably fallacious logic of the essay "The Missing Faces of Merion", an essay you were one of the ones asked to review, correct?   

Would you like me to quote that part again on here from the essay?  

[TEPaul]

"We have a record of 32,000 posts that show us your historical knowledge."


Thank you Mr. MacWood. That's kind of you to say that. I hear that all the time from people all over the place who are both registered and aren't registered but read this website. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Mr. MacWood:

Do you deny saying on here that in your opinion Myopia should throw out their history and start from scratch?  


Furthermore, perhaps you might try to explain why you think Myopia was telling a lie in their administrative meetings in 1894 when they recorded that Appleton, Merrill and Gardner went out there in the spring of 1894 and laid out the original nine holes.  

TE
I definitely recommended they start over.

Adminstrative meetings? I take it you are referring to the Myopia history book you often refer to for your info. Their records are so thorough they were unaware the late great Willie Campbell was their pro. The history book is wrong. Its not the first time a club history has been wrong (see Merion & PV)....no need to call the authors liars.

[TEPaul]

"The history book is wrong."

Mr. MacWood:

How do you think the history book wrong?

As far as the Edward Weeks history book of 1975 not mentioning Willie Campbell, that is pretty interesting since it seems that history book mentioned every other golf professional the club ever had up to 1975. If Campbell ever was their golf professional he obviously didn't make much of an impression on the club!

[Thomas MacWood]

I thought this was interesting. It's from a 1906 article in the New York Sun:

"Since   the   declaration   by   Andrew   Kirkaldy that   Myopia  is  the best test of   good   golf   he has   seen   in   a   long   life   of   links   visiting,    many amateurs   who   live   afar   from   Boston   have   the desire   to   engage   in   a   competition   over   the noted   course.   To   meet   the   many   requests, open   competitions   have  been arranged   by the   Myopia   golf   committee for   May  31   and September   29."

I don't know the name Andrew Kirkaldy.   Should his praise mean something?

Peter

Kirkaldy and Sandy Herd visited together and were both very impressed. They were among the best players of that era, both highly respected. Both men delved into golf architecture too, in fact Herd was fairly prolific. He was HH Barker's mentor.

I found this interesting observation from another account of their visit to Myopia:

"Kirkaldy was much interested in the fact that Willie Campbell, his old friend, had tried shots at this or that hole. It was a reunion in the spirit of the old and new gods of the game."

TE
It would appear he made a fairly large impression, not only at Myopia, but also with Kirkaldy.

[Jay Flemma]

Wow..this wasn't what I expecte3d when I started this thread...

OK...there's this whole "what's similar and different about myopia and GCGC" thing that's trying to run in the background here:)

Can we kinda try to get on message here?

I'm gonna do my best Pat Mucci and just try a little moderating:

TE Paul:  great stuff so far.  Can you please briefly sum up - a) did emmet and leeds exchange ideas? b)  is there a common source for their ideas and c) can you point to holes or design features at GCGC amd MHC that support this?

Tom McW:  Same to you - great stuff, highly instructive.  Can we distill to the essential arguments your thoughts on the same qs.

Then once we have them, lets see what everyone else thinks...

[TEPaul]

"Its not the first time a club history has been wrong (see Merion & PV)....no need to call the authors liars."

Mr. MacWood:

I'm not calling anybody a liar and certainly not Merion's, PV's or Myopia's history book authors. Weeks' account of the laying out of the original nine holes was taken directly from the records of the club in 1894.

[TEPaul]

"TE Paul:  great stuff so far.  Can you please briefly sum up -

"a) did emmet and leeds exchange ideas?"

I do not know.

 "b)  is there a common source for their ideas"

I do not know that either. Assuming something like that would be real speculation, in my opinion.
 
"c) can you point to holes or design features at GCGC amd MHC that support this?"

Nothing much other than the fact that both Myopia and GCGC have some of the best what I called "natural landform green sites and greens" I have ever seen. But that does not mean to me that Leeds and Emmet ever collaborated on that idea or got it from one another. Maybe they did but I'm not aware of it. On the other hand, it would be truly remarkable to me if they were not aware of each other and what they'd each done and were doing.

[TEPaul]

"TE
It would appear he made a fairly large impression, not only at Myopia, but also with Kirkaldy."


Mr. MacWood:

I see. What evidence (or call it documentation, as you do) do you have that Campbell made a fairly large impression at Myopia? Is that what you're saying? Campbell did do pretty well in the 1898 US Open there I believe. Is that what you mean about him making a fairly large impression at Myopia? If that's what you mean, then Fred Herd made a larger impression at Myopia in 1898 because he won the US Open there in 1898! 

By the way, for about the fifteenth time, are you ever going to produce that Boston Globe article about Campbell you've referred to and a ship passenger manifest indicating WHEN Campbell first arrived in America, or are you going to continue to avoid that because you're afraid it will shoot down your contention?   

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
It is obvious they closely associated Campbell with Myopia, and why wouldn't they. Willie Campbell laid out the first nine holes (at least), and he was the pro at Myopia. Its not like Myopia was the only course Campbell ever competed over. As the author said "Kirkaldy was much interested in the fact that Willie Campbell, his old friend, had tried shots at this or that hole. It was a reunion in the spirit of the old and new gods of the game."

For the fifteenth time I have to decline, as you know I made a pledge some time ago that I would not help you or anyone associated with you. Since obviously you are incapable of researching this stuff on your own (even when you're told where to look) perhaps you could get one of your lackeys to do it.

[Peter Pallotta]

TE, Tom M

I'd assumed that the 1906 article was referring to Leeds, but what I found strange is the phrasing of it, i.e. the writing seemed to go out of its way NOT to mention Leeds by name, and yet at the same time to suggest that the name had "long been known"by those in the know...

I'd figured that Leeds wasn't much into publicity-making for his work at Myopia, but that quote makes it sound like he actively avoided it.

Peter   

[wsmorrison]

Tom Paul,

Since Tom MacWood refuses to assist you, perhaps if you ask Tony Pioppi very nicely, he will look through the archives of the Boston paper and let you know his findings. 

Interesting that Tom MacWood has an understanding with clubs he is "working with" and is withholding private records from this site, but he and his protege take us to task for doing the exact same thing.  Curious but not surprising.  I would think Tom MacWood would be one of the first to defend our position rather than attack it.  I guess he thinks the rules that he applies do not apply to others.